NJT To Operate All Non-ShortLine Coach USA Commuter Routes?

[imagineverything]

Above is a map posted of this, but there are "anti destructive competition" Coach USA territories that make up huge portions of Bergen County -  the lines that area navy blue and olive yellow/green are CoachUSA and the October 2011 Northeast New Jersey Metro Mobility Study (NENJMMS) project team told me that many of the recommendations that would make sense for Bergen County were impossible to implement due to Coach USA claims on territory. NJT absorbing these areas will mean that regular service can be offered to Western Teaneck, New Milford, Oradell and other areas that are very dense but without service. Huge parts of Englewood and Tenafly are like this too. Getting Coach USA Routes isn't about Rockland - rockland is just a park and ride and bus garage - its about serving the other 50% of Bergen County that Coach USA claims.

Edited July 19 by imagineverything

[Lawrence St]

Perhaps I’m confused but how does a private company have territory on public roadways?

[NJTE]

2 hours ago, imagineverything said:

Above is a map posted of this, but there are "anti destructive competition" Coach USA territories that make up huge portions of Bergen County -  the lines that area navy blue and olive yellow/green are CoachUSA and the October 2011 Northeast New Jersey Metro Mobility Study (NENJMMS) project team told me that many of the recommendations that would make sense for Bergen County were impossible to implement due to Coach USA claims on territory. NJT absorbing these areas will mean that regular service can be offered to Western Teaneck, New Milford, Oradell and other areas that are very dense but without service. Huge parts of Englewood and Tenafly are like this too. Getting Coach USA Routes isn't about Rockland - rockland is just a park and ride and bus garage - its about serving the other 50% of Bergen County that Coach USA claims.

a good chunk of new milford only has local bus service because of the nonexistant 21T, river vale has no bus service whatsoever because the 14ET still doesn't run

notably CUSA seems to be actively claiming this territory as the signs keep getting replaced (unlike the 46)

this sign is from no earlier than late 2022, as it replaced an absolutely prehistoric bus stop sign visible on street view (monochrome blue with RED AND TAN LINES actually printed on the sign)

Edited July 19 by NJTE

[Gotham Bus Co]

3 hours ago, imagineverything said:

Getting Coach USA Routes isn't about Rockland - rockland is just a park and ride and bus garage - its about serving the other 50% of Bergen County that Coach USA claims.

 

Is there any demand from Bergen County for one or more of those routes to connect with the H3/H5/H7 to Tarrytown and White Plains?

[B35 via Church]

8 hours ago, imagineverything said:

Getting Coach USA Routes isn't about Rockland - rockland is just a park and ride and bus garage - its about serving the other 50% of Bergen County that Coach USA claims.

🙃

....because the aptly named subdivision of Coach USA in question - that is, Rockland Coaches, has no bearing on anything whatsoever.

Your apparent wanting it to solely be about serving the northeastern portion of Bergen County won't render Rockland County & its riders irrelevant.

[NJTE]

7 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co said:

 

Is there any demand from Bergen County for one or more of those routes to connect with the H3/H5/H7 to Tarrytown and White Plains?

Probably, if I’m not mistaken coach does serve the palisades mall but I’m pretty confident that the route that does serve it doesn’t run anymore 

[NJTE]

Just now, NJTE said:

Probably, if I’m not mistaken coach does serve the palisades mall but I’m pretty confident that the route that does serve it doesn’t run anymore 

Or it probably does just not frequently, not sure 

[NJTE]

Having asked a more knowledgeable person, here’s what they have to say about: 

8 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co said:

 

Is there any demand from Bergen County for one or more of those routes to connect with the H3/H5/H7 to Tarrytown and White Plains?

“There probably is demand for connections to Hudson Link from Bergen County, but these are impossible to verify at present because both NJT rail and CUSA bus schedules do not allow for it, even though there is an otherwise excellent transfer hub at Spring Valley. Run service and ridership will come; White Plains is a major employment hub in its own right. People do commute locally on the PVL if a train is available, despite the bad reverse peak schedule, and at least some probably transfer to buses to reach work somewhere else in Rockland by TOR or Westchester by Hudson Link.”

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

🙃

....because the aptly named subdivision of Coach USA in question - that is, Rockland Coaches, has no bearing on anything whatsoever.

Your apparent wanting it to solely be about serving the northeastern portion of Bergen County won't render Rockland County & its riders irrelevant.

“Rockland Coaches has, for almost the entirety of its existence, been a NJ-centric bus carrier with the far reaches of its routes covering Rockland County; its old primary garage and headquarters before downsizing to just the Westwood garage was in Bergenfield. Its NJ-NYC routes have withered over the years, thanks to NJT providing superior service and fares in this area on routes taken over from other carriers. Of the routes cut since 2000, when the oldest online schedules available can be found, almost all routes cut were either NJ-NYC routes (11T, 14, 14K, 14ET, 21T, 25, 48, 84, 84L) or routes that primarily served NJ and only ran far enough into Rockland County to terminate at a logical point such as the Spring Valley Bus Terminal (11C, 20, 45E, 46). All that remains is effectively a skeletal network composed of their interstate routes, many converted into local slogs to retain nominal coverage. Rockland commuters of course can and should be taken into account with the Coach USA bankruptcy and breakup, but to deny NJ taxpayers service from the transit agency they fund because a private carrier is called "Rockland Coaches" is bizarre and frankly insulting to those of us that actually live here and are practically unable to travel anywhere without a car because the service is barely even usable for traditional 9-5 commuters, let alone those shopping or engaging in leisure travel. NJ Transit taking over the Rockland Coaches routes and territory would be a massive net positive for actual New Jerseyans, even in a scenario where it would have to run at a loss in Rockland County.”

[JAzumah]

5 hours ago, NJTE said:

“There probably is demand for connections to Hudson Link from Bergen County, but these are impossible to verify at present because both NJT rail and CUSA bus schedules do not allow for it, even though there is an otherwise excellent transfer hub at Spring Valley. Run service and ridership will come; White Plains is a major employment hub in its own right. People do commute locally on the PVL if a train is available, despite the bad reverse peak schedule, and at least some probably transfer to buses to reach work somewhere else in Rockland by TOR or Westchester by Hudson Link.”

I agree 100%.

 

5 hours ago, NJTE said:

NJ Transit taking over the Rockland Coaches routes and territory would be a massive net positive for actual New Jerseyans, even in a scenario where it would have to run at a loss in Rockland County.

I also agree 100%. You'll notice that NJT is leaning on private carriers to provide SOME off-peak service in order to keep their buses. The 9A/9T became much more useful when they did that.

[B35 via Church]

6 hours ago, NJTE said:

Rockland commuters of course can and should be taken into account with the Coach USA bankruptcy and breakup....

...was my only point to the guy.

6 hours ago, NJTE said:

.....but to deny NJ taxpayers service from the transit agency they fund because a private carrier is called "Rockland Coaches" is bizarre and frankly insulting to those of us that actually live here and are practically unable to travel anywhere without a car because the service is barely even usable for traditional 9-5 commuters, let alone those shopping or engaging in leisure travel....

What's bizarre is this blatant mischaracterization of my prior post.... My bringing up of the fact that the name of one of the carrier's subdivisions contains the very name of the county that it supposedly "isn't about" (have that poster tell it), isn't remotely tantamount to this sentiment you're conveying here, talking about denying NJ taxpayers service because of the name of the carrier*... Regardless of whatever (misdirected) feelings of insult you wish to include to make your point, that is one hell of a leap to go from the former (the point of my post to the guy) to the latter (this erroneous conclusion that I'm addressing here of yours)....

If I didn't think NE Bergen County patrons deserved any semblance of service, I'd flat out say it... My general sentiment regarding the matter is that if NJT were to take over those Rockland Coaches routes, I would not run them to Rockland County.... There is nothing saying that the routes have to remain as-is upon any takeover, as if it's all or nothing.... If NJT can find a way to have the Upper Ridgewood #163's terminate smack in the middle of residences, they can find a way to terminate service in the upper portion of the NE portion of the county, instead of running them to Rockland County.

32 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

I also agree 100%. You'll notice that NJT is leaning on private carriers to provide SOME off-peak service in order to keep their buses. The 9A/9T became much more useful when they did that.

Just saw this post as I hit the reply button.

I don't see it being anything remotely resembling some quote-unquote massive net positive.... That is an overstatement.... Bergen County - Rockland County patronage especially, for lack of a better term, is quite shit.... Have NJT take over these routes, I want to see just how much service to/from Rockland a] will exist off-peak & b] will (or even if it'll) be increased.... Better yet, I want to hear of this great demand for service between the two locales, because at the moment, it's so quiet that the collective sounds of a pin dropping & an ant taking a piss on cotton are deafening.

Edited July 20 by B35 via Church

[Robert Spire]

On 7/11/2024 at 5:57 AM, Lawrence St said:

Not according to what I read, that part of Dutchess across the River isn’t subject to it. Most of the complaints have been about the raised tax in case MNR ever goes up there.

Dutchess County is east of the Hudson. West of Hudson is Ulster County not subject to the MTA tax. 

[JAzumah]

6 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I don't see it being anything remotely resembling some quote-unquote massive net positive.... That is an overstatement.... Bergen County - Rockland County patronage especially, for lack of a better term, is quite shit.... Have NJT take over these routes, I want to see just how much service to/from Rockland a] will exist off-peak & b] will (or even if it'll) be increased.... Better yet, I want to hear of this great demand for service between the two locales, because at the moment, it's so quiet that the collective sounds of a pin dropping & an ant taking a piss on cotton are deafening.

I like the potential for Spring Valley to be a regional hub including NJT buses. I also like Palisades Mall as a regional transfer point.

[imagineverything]

Having taken the 

On 7/20/2024 at 5:54 AM, B35 via Church said:

...was my only point to the guy.

What's bizarre is this blatant mischaracterization of my prior post.... My bringing up of the fact that the name of one of the carrier's subdivisions contains the very name of the county that it supposedly "isn't about" (have that poster tell it), isn't remotely tantamount to this sentiment you're conveying here, talking about denying NJ taxpayers service because of the name of the carrier*... Regardless of whatever (misdirected) feelings of insult you wish to include to make your point, that is one hell of a leap to go from the former (the point of my post to the guy) to the latter (this erroneous conclusion that I'm addressing here of yours)....

If I didn't think NE Bergen County patrons deserved any semblance of service, I'd flat out say it... My general sentiment regarding the matter is that if NJT were to take over those Rockland Coaches routes, I would not run them to Rockland County.... There is nothing saying that the routes have to remain as-is upon any takeover, as if it's all or nothing.... If NJT can find a way to have the Upper Ridgewood #163's terminate smack in the middle of residences, they can find a way to terminate service in the upper portion of the NE portion of the county, instead of running them to Rockland County.

Just saw this post as I hit the reply button.

I don't see it being anything remotely resembling some quote-unquote massive net positive.... That is an overstatement.... Bergen County - Rockland County patronage especially, for lack of a better term, is quite shit.... Have NJT take over these routes, I want to see just how much service to/from Rockland a] will exist off-peak & b] will (or even if it'll) be increased.... Better yet, I want to hear of this great demand for service between the two locales, because at the moment, it's so quiet that the collective sounds of a pin dropping & an ant taking a piss on cotton are deafening.

Having taken the 11A bus from New City to Teaneck, I can report that the 75 minutes of local roads was excruciating. For most of Eastern bergen, getting to Rockland County involves local streets other than Route 17 and GSP on the western edge or 9W/PIP on the Hudson. within the northern valley or the Hackensack River, its all local streets. I dont think it would make sense for a bus to begin in PABT, stop in Bergen and then continue north to make stops in Rockland -the route would be too long for the passengers.

 

Perhaps a limited stop service could work , that stopped at garden State Plaza, both GSP park and rides, and then took a local route to Spring Valley. 

 

However, I am on the fence because there is a need to have better links between upper Bergen and Rockland - historically, serviced by rail with the Northern branch and West Shore. Replacing fast rail trips with a slog of a bus route is not ideal. 

 

Maybe BRT could be helpful, along Kinderkamack road or knickerbocker, but its still  a very long route.

 

With all that said, it is crucial for Rockland Coaches to be brought into NJT completely, it would solve the upper bergen issue finally and it would make sense for the MTA Bus Company to operate themselves or to pay NJT to operate buses to Rockland that run non stop until the GSP montvale Park and Ride before running local in Rockland.

[B35 via Church]

On 7/21/2024 at 9:12 PM, imagineverything said:

Having taken the 11A bus from New City to Teaneck, I can report that the 75 minutes of local roads was excruciating. For most of Eastern bergen, getting to Rockland County involves local streets other than Route 17 and GSP on the western edge or 9W/PIP on the Hudson. within the northern valley or the Hackensack River, its all local streets. I dont think it would make sense for a bus to begin in PABT, stop in Bergen and then continue north to make stops in Rockland -the route would be too long for the passengers.

Perhaps a limited stop service could work , that stopped at garden State Plaza, both GSP park and rides, and then took a local route to Spring Valley. 

However, I am on the fence because there is a need to have better links between upper Bergen and Rockland - historically, serviced by rail with the Northern branch and West Shore. Replacing fast rail trips with a slog of a bus route is not ideal. 

Maybe BRT could be helpful, along Kinderkamack road or knickerbocker, but its still  a very long route.

With all that said, it is crucial for Rockland Coaches to be brought into NJT completely, it would solve the upper bergen issue finally and it would make sense for the MTA Bus Company to operate themselves or to pay NJT to operate buses to Rockland that run non stop until the GSP montvale Park and Ride before running local in Rockland.

Wait.... You're saying you don't think it'd make sense for a bus to begin in PABT, but then say it's crucial for Rockland Coaches to be brought into NJT completely?

In any case, the part about not running out of PABT I can agree with - if it can be shown & ultimately proven that enough NJ patrons would utilize a local route that'd run to (wherever) in Rockland county.... Well that, and figuring out where in NJ would such a route even terminate.... I will admit that a GSP - Palisades mall route (for example) does sound interesting (in a good way)....

What I'm ultimately getting at with those Coach USA routes isn't this misconstrued notion of Northern Bergen county not deserving of service, it's that commuter service for Rockland county patrons shouldn't be making stops in NJ (that northern Bergen county patrons have to rely on, because NJT currently doesn't have routes operating past a certain point).... For all I care, they can use some of those Hudson Link buses - I think they went way too far with how they went about breaking up the old TzX anyway....

On 7/20/2024 at 1:03 PM, JAzumah said:

I like the potential for Spring Valley to be a regional hub including NJT buses. I also like Palisades Mall as a regional transfer point.

- I get why people think that (about Spring Valley... you're not the first person I've heard/read express that sentiment), but it's missing something that I can't quite put my finger on.... I'm not talking about space constraints/lack of space, nor the single track BS on the PVL there either....

- Palisades for the purpose of a regional xfer point OTOH. I can't really concur with.... It's enough that it's used for commuter service / P&R-ing (I suppose you can take that with a grain of salt, because I've never been wild about malls being used for commuter service)...

[checkmatechamp13]

It seems like NJT found some way to get coverage for those routes. The service advisory indicates that new schedules take effect August 17th: https://www.njtransit.com/service-advisory/1794980

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

It seems like NJT found some way to get coverage for those routes. The service advisory indicates that new schedules take effect August 17th: https://www.njtransit.com/service-advisory/1794980

"This advisory has expired. Please click here to view current alerts and advisories across all NJ Transit services"

[B35 via Church]

12 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

It seems like NJT found some way to get coverage for those routes. The service advisory indicates that new schedules take effect August 17th: https://www.njtransit.com/service-advisory/1794980

9 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

"This advisory has expired. Please click here to view current alerts and advisories across all NJ Transit services"

So much for having expired... SMFH....

Now that I check the link this morning before I'm about to head out, I get this:

-------------------------------------

 

New NJ TRANSIT Bus Schedules – Effective Saturday, August 17, 2024

New NJ TRANSIT bus schedules will take effect on Saturday, August 17, on several bus routes. Please visit the Bus Point-to-Point page to carefully review bus timetables before starting your trip. If your bus route has an upcoming timetable change, a link will be available stating "Upcoming Schedule - Effective August 17, 2024" in the “Download PDF Schedules” area. 

New timetables will be posted for the following NJ TRANSIT Bus Routes:

Bus Route Nos. 2, 14, 22, 34, 37, 62, 80, 83, 84, 85, 88, 94, 108, 127, 128, 129, 163, 165, 250, 258, 320, 702, 705, 707, 709, 722, 744, 746, 748, 751, 752, 753, 755, 756, 758, 762, 772, and 780.

For more information, visit www.njtransit.com/coach.

Please note the following service changes:

On the bus routes mentioned above, trip times and service levels have been adjusted to reflect current travel experience and improve reliability. 

Route No. 108 (daily): The timetable map has been updated to better reflect fare zone boundaries.

Customers are encouraged to subscribe to the latest updates via text messages and emails via My Transit Alerts, through the TRANSIT Mobile App (including customized push notifications), by visiting Travel Alerts & Advisories for the latest service-related information, or by following us at @NJTRANSIT or via your line-specific accounts on “X” (formerly Twitter).

For more information and language assistance, please call NJ TRANSIT Customer Service at (973) 275-5555 between the hours of 8:30AM and 5PM daily.

Edited August 9 by B35 via Church