MTA's Budget crisis makes people voice stupid ideas

[MHV9218]

8 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

While we endlessly debate the here and now it seems that many people overlook the obvious or are too young to know. FACT.... the  was not created to run the NYCT bus and subway network. It was created for the benefit of suburbanites. Kinda hard to kick the suburbs to the curb if you look at it that way. The fiscal crisis in NYC is the reason the  is in the picture at all. IIRC NYC still owns the subway system. If I'm mistaken I can be corrected. No hard feelings either way. Carry on.

Well, your point taken, but I'm not sure that's not the most charitable summary of it. You could argue for Rockefeller and Ronan, it was really two factors coinciding – subways in need of funding, and Bridges and Tunnels producing plenty of revenue. I think in their mind, a lot of the benefit was really to city dwellers – now the bus network running a deficit and the subway barely breaking even could be subsidized by Bridges and Tunnels. Moreover, they wouldn't have to raise the fare about 20¢! That was the real heart of the gambit, people sometimes forget.

I think you could say the lifeblood of it has always been the NYC-focused, because Bridges and Tunnels involved river crossings in and out of NYC (not to mention NYCT and MaBSTOA being local). I don't think we can really say it was created for suburbanites; more a happy marriage of a number of interests together. To me, the county executives should really only have control over their proportion of the MTA budget. No more, and no less.

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, MHV9218 said:

I don't think we can really say it was created for suburbanites; more a happy marriage of a number of interests together.

Except when MCTA was created in '64, it was to buy the LIRR from bankrupt Penn Central. Metropolitan Commuter Transportation Authority

Only in 1968 was  brought into the fold and  was created.

1 hour ago, MHV9218 said:

To me, the county executives should really only have control over their proportion of the MTA budget. No more, and no less.

So have NYC end 's lease on the NYC Subway? That include the buses too?

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, Deucey said:

Except when MCTA was created in '64, it was to buy the LIRR from bankrupt Penn Central. Metropolitan Commuter Transportation Authority

Only in 1968 was  brought into the fold and  was created.

So have NYC end 's lease on the NYC Subway? That include the buses too?

It's a hard square to circle. Really, the original unholy marriage was that of the toll authorities and the railroads; I would hazard a guess that a good chunk of traffic on all of the tolled crossings are not suburban at all.

However, divorcing the railroads from the rest of it would be an extremely nasty fight, and on top of that you'll have Long Islanders complain about how the "city" unfairly tolls them to get off the island (never mind that until we had bridges for the first 200 years of this colony/state this was true, you had to pay for ferries.) And they also are not interested in building an alternative crossing across the Sound to change that fact.

The other problem is that unlike other places, which have bottom-up tax funding of transit (e.g. cities can dedicate a extra portion of sales tax to transit) the transit taxes are top-down from the State and the MTA gets first dibs. It is extremely unlikely that NYC could pull away from the MTA with its portion of the dedicated tax streams, and if you can't do that it's a financially unfeasible proposition.

[MHV9218]

9 hours ago, Deucey said:

Except when MCTA was created in '64, it was to buy the LIRR from bankrupt Penn Central. Metropolitan Commuter Transportation Authority

Only in 1968 was  brought into the fold and  was created.

So have NYC end 's lease on the NYC Subway? That include the buses too?

I mean, sure. But...didn't he say the MTA? Seemed like his comment was about the 1968 establishing, so that's what I responded to. And that's what married tolls and transit, since transit needed the tolls to stay solvent. That's why you might argue the city area benefited from the marriage as much as anybody else. 

And no, not really? Again, I don't see where you got that from my comment? I feel like everybody is just picking fights for the sake of them here. I tend to agree with you.

[JAzumah]

35 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

I mean, sure. But...didn't he say the MTA?

MCTA = MTA

This is why the taxing area is called the MCTD (Metropolitan Commuter Transit District).

[MHV9218]

7 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

MCTA = MTA

This is why the taxing area is called the MCTD (Metropolitan Commuter Transit District).

Not sure, I think everybody thinks of the MTA as seriously coming into formation after

1) 1965 - the MCTA taking over the LIRR

2) 1967 - the MCTA acquiring the TBTA, allowing the revenue source to take over the NYCTA (Lindsay's plan)

3) 1968 - the MCTA becomes the MTA, takes over control of everything together, and Robert Moses is finally pushed out

To say that it's only part 1 is, to me, not really the whole picture. Step 1 comprises less than 1/5th of the MTA's budget. 52% goes to the NYCT network, which only came into play in 1967 with steps 2 and 3. The whole point, I think, is that it was this great unholy marriage of all these separate interests, made possible by the relative surplus of tolling against the relative deficit of railroads and transit. 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by MHV9218

[JAzumah]

The MTA was seen as an entity that could pool more revenues to be able to float bonds to rebuild the transit system. It was expanded to that role, but the railroads were literally falling apart. The subways were in much better shape than the railroads at that time.

[MHV9218]

Just now, JAzumah said:

The MTA was seen as an entity that could pool more revenues to be able to float bonds to rebuild the transit system. It was expanded to that role, but the railroads were literally falling apart. The subways were in much better shape than the railroads at that time.

True, and the proposition was always that transit would be supported by the income of Bridge and Tunnels. Hence I would definitely date the MTA to at least after the fact of the TBTA acquisition, which is right around the same time of the NYCTA acquisition. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

@MHV9218 We were having a discussion about what Pat Foye said regarding funding. Well apparently I wasn't the only one that heard that they needed $12 billion to get through 2021.  There's a debate about it now on Twitter because he (Foye) stated (incorrectly) back in August that $12b was what the  needed to get through 2021. I'm quoting David J. Meyer who is a Transit Reporter. Foye has since corrected himself and made it clear that the $12b is over the next four years, but it's a bit of a problem when the head of the  can't get the facts straight about what money is needed.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[MHV9218]

It is not correct to say Foye "doesn't have the facts straight." He is not a stupid man. Moreover, the estimates have changed between the July Plan and the November Plan. I think what is more likely is that their estimates have shifted over the course of the pandemic and deficit spending has been reorganized. Cuts have also been planned. And don't forget the higher-than-anticipated vaccine efficacy (90% vs. ~65%) with earlier (Q1 2021) implementation than initially planned. I'm combing through the current PowerPoint. Some revenue was slightly higher than initially expected:

"Agency revenues and expenses are more favorable than projected in the July Plan. Fare and toll revenues are estimated to surpass the July Plan forecast by $319 million, while non-labor expenses are projected to be lower by $295 million in 2020, although are projected to be higher for the rest of the Plan period. Savings from vacancies—attributable to an MTA-wide hiring freeze—are expected to total $66 million. Debt service expense is forecast to be $31 million favorable in 2020, with savings through the remainder of the Plan period, while subsidies are slightly unfavorable through 2022, followed by improvements in 2023 and 2024."

I think the relevant change may be this borrowing that allows the 2020 deficit to be covered (emphasis mine):

"To cover the 2020 deficit, the MTA will use the authority granted in the 2020-2021 State Enacted Budget to borrow up to $10 billion in deficit financing through December 2022. The MTA intends to utilize the Federal Reserve’s Municipal Lending Facility (“MLF”), which was established by the Federal Reserve as a source of emergency financing for state and local governments and public entities to ensure they have access to credit during the COVID pandemic. MTA has previously utilized this lending facility to refinance approximately $450 million of maturing bond anticipation notes in August. The terms of the MLF financing are attractive compared with MTA’s alternatives in the municipal credit markets and so the MTA intends to borrow the maximum it is allowed to borrow under the program, $2.9 billion, before the lending window closes at the end of 2020. The MTA expects to issue long-term bonds in 2023 to repay the MLF loan.

https://new.mta.info/document/24126

Now, that borrowing isn't exactly a good thing, but it may keep the lights on given the anticipated $3.9bil of HEROES funding did not materialize.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

23 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

It is not correct to say Foye "doesn't have the facts straight." He is not a stupid man. Moreover, the estimates have changed between the July Plan and the November Plan. I think what is more likely is that their estimates have shifted over the course of the pandemic and deficit spending has been reorganized. Cuts have also been planned. And don't forget the higher-than-anticipated vaccine efficacy (90% vs. ~65%) with earlier (Q1 2021) implementation than initially planned. I'm combing through the current PowerPoint. Some revenue was slightly higher than initially expected:

"Agency revenues and expenses are more favorable than projected in the July Plan. Fare and toll revenues are estimated to surpass the July Plan forecast by $319 million, while non-labor expenses are projected to be lower by $295 million in 2020, although are projected to be higher for the rest of the Plan period. Savings from vacancies—attributable to an MTA-wide hiring freeze—are expected to total $66 million. Debt service expense is forecast to be $31 million favorable in 2020, with savings through the remainder of the Plan period, while subsidies are slightly unfavorable through 2022, followed by improvements in 2023 and 2024."

I think the relevant change may be this borrowing that allows the 2020 deficit to be covered (emphasis mine):

"To cover the 2020 deficit, the MTA will use the authority granted in the 2020-2021 State Enacted Budget to borrow up to $10 billion in deficit financing through December 2022. The MTA intends to utilize the Federal Reserve’s Municipal Lending Facility (“MLF”), which was established by the Federal Reserve as a source of emergency financing for state and local governments and public entities to ensure they have access to credit during the COVID pandemic. MTA has previously utilized this lending facility to refinance approximately $450 million of maturing bond anticipation notes in August. The terms of the MLF financing are attractive compared with MTA’s alternatives in the municipal credit markets and so the MTA intends to borrow the maximum it is allowed to borrow under the program, $2.9 billion, before the lending window closes at the end of 2020. The MTA expects to issue long-term bonds in 2023 to repay the MLF loan.

https://new.mta.info/document/24126

Now, that borrowing isn't exactly a good thing, but it may keep the lights on given the anticipated $3.9bil of HEROES funding did not materialize.

Well that's exactly what they should do if nothing else materializes.  We probably won't have stimulus until perhaps early 2021 and even then, that may not include anything for transit agencies.  Secretary of the Treasury Steve Mnuchin made it clear that the can and should borrow to cover their deficits. I read his comments to mean that the  should not bank on getting $12b in aid from the Feds.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[MHV9218]

For what it's worth, by the way, you're right that the '$12b thru 2021' comment is confusing. It may be out of date. The math looks a lot closer to ($12b) through 2022, and then -2 and -2. ($16b) through 2024 seems to be most accurate and most up-to-date number, and the MTA is asking the feds for $12b of that $16b. My guess is this is to avoid debt service payments eclipsing the budget too massively.

Edited November 25, 2020 by MHV9218

[Deucey]

3 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Again, I don't see where you got that from my comment?

From here:

Having the counties only control the parts of the budget that affect infrastructure in their areas effectively de-merges  since that is in effect what a county transit authority is -  administers money for SCT and Bee Line, but both counties run their systems their way.

Works fine for buses, but because railroads cross county lines, letting Nassau decide to divert funds from its LIRR budget to NICE will affect Suffolk's ability to use the LIRR. That's why states create authorities for these thing or make them state agencies - to prevent bottlenecks from holding operations hostage. You give the Authority's power of the purse to counties, you get Charlie Foxtrots.

3 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

I feel like everybody is just picking fights for the sake of them here. I tend to agree with you.

It's a forum. Forums are venues for displays, demonstrations, and debates. No one's "picking fights" with you - they're taking what you're saying and debating it.

But when it comes to you and @Via Garibaldi 8, it seems you're coming for him and what he says due to personal feelings.

[MHV9218]

37 minutes ago, Deucey said:

From here:

Having the counties only control the parts of the budget that affect infrastructure in their areas effectively de-merges  since that is in effect what a county transit authority is -  administers money for SCT and Bee Line, but both counties run their systems their way.

Works fine for buses, but because railroads cross county lines, letting Nassau decide to divert funds from its LIRR budget to NICE will affect Suffolk's ability to use the LIRR. That's why states create authorities for these thing or make them state agencies - to prevent bottlenecks from holding operations hostage. You give the Authority's power of the purse to counties, you get Charlie Foxtrots.

It's a forum. Forums are venues for displays, demonstrations, and debates. No one's "picking fights" with you - they're taking what you're saying and debating it.

But when it comes to you and @Via Garibaldi 8, it seems you're coming for him and what he says due to personal feelings.

Oh, then I didn't phrase that well. I think the county executives should be able to opine on funding for the suburban divisions of the network, but if anything they should have far less power over the regional. It's things like ESA that shouldn't be allowed to happen, and people like Ed Mangano who shouldn't have a seat at the table. I said it seemed like picking a fight because at no point did I endorse ending the lease agreement, and I can't really figure out where in my comment it seemed like I said that. It seems like you just put the words in my mouth.

That last statement actually made me laugh. Come on, man. That's such a biased read of these conversations. You can even scroll up three lines in this thread to see who @'d who. Did I bring him in to this thread? 

Also, look, I get that you've been on the forum for a few years. You have your allegiances. But there's history to some of the remarks here. Some of us, like myself, @GojiMet86, @R10 2952, obviously @Cait Sith, have been on this forum for the better part of ten or more years. We have pretty good memories about the way people have conducted themselves and the things they've said over the years. I view it as one long conversation all of us have been having. It's not personal feelings, it's knowing where people are coming from, how they've conducted themselves, the things they've said. We're lucky, some of the real nuts are no longer here lol – all types of slurs and such from chargerdodge or whoever that guy was back in '12 or so, and his many different accounts after. A lot of people are better behaved than they used to be. I'll include myself in that, lol. But it all adds up.

Edited November 25, 2020 by MHV9218

[Cait Sith]

45 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Oh, then I didn't phrase that well. I think the county executives should be able to opine on funding for the suburban divisions of the network, but if anything they should have far less power over the regional. It's things like ESA that shouldn't be allowed to happen, and people like Ed Mangano who shouldn't have a seat at the table. I said it seemed like picking a fight because at no point did I endorse ending the lease agreement, and I can't really figure out where in my comment it seemed like I said that. It seems like you just put the words in my mouth.

That last statement actually made me laugh. Come on, man. That's such a biased read of these conversations. You can even scroll up three lines in this thread to see who @'d who. Did I bring him in to this thread? 

Also, look, I get that you've been on the forum for a few years. You have your allegiances. But there's history to some of the remarks here. Some of us, like myself, @GojiMet86, @R10 2952, obviously @Cait Sith, have been on this forum for the better part of ten or more years. We have pretty good memories about the way people have conducted themselves and the things they've said over the years. I view it as one long conversation all of us have been having. It's not personal feelings, it's knowing where people are coming from, how they've conducted themselves, the things they've said. We're lucky, some of the real nuts are no longer here lol – all types of slurs and such from chargerdodge or whoever that guy was back in '12 or so, and his many different accounts after. A lot of people are better behaved than they used to be. I'll include myself in that, lol. But it all adds up.

God, thanks for making me feel old now🤣😭(joined at 19, currently 31)

[MHV9218]

2 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

God, thanks for making me feel old now🤣😭(joined at 19, currently 31)

LMAO! I know, I'm like, wasn't I supposed to outgrow that transit stuff back when I was a kid... Damn. 

Worst is when I have a Zoom for an interview or work and I have to hide the subway signs on the wall... I'm grown, I swear... hire me!

Edited November 25, 2020 by MHV9218

[bobtehpanda]

4 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

LMAO! I know, I'm like, wasn't I supposed to outgrow that transit stuff back when I was a kid... Damn. 

Worst is when I have a Zoom for an interview or work and I have to hide the subway signs on the wall... I'm grown, I swear... hire me!

To be honest I don't think this would be that bad. It's not as obvious a red flag as, say, having posters of anime waifus all over the place. Personally, I indulge myself with historic maps, so I can just say I like vintage things if anyone asks questions. But rollsigns aren't immediately weird to me, the same way that I wouldn't be weirded out if someone's room was full of Patriots memorabilia. (Approving of that is a different story.)

[MHV9218]

4 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

To be honest I don't think this would be that bad. It's not as obvious a red flag as, say, having posters of anime waifus all over the place. Personally, I indulge myself with historic maps, so I can just say I like vintage things if anyone asks questions. But rollsigns aren't immediately weird to me, the same way that I wouldn't be weirded out if someone's room was full of Patriots memorabilia. (Approving of that is a different story.)

Damn, so you're telling me I should hide the six-foot furry, but keep the rollsigns? I wish somebody had warned me earlier.

[bobtehpanda]

3 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Damn, so you're telling me I should hide the six-foot furry, but keep the rollsigns? I wish somebody had warned me earlier.

It's probably also a matter of scale :P. One or two is probably fine, living on a plausible Hoarders set or museum exhibit is not.

But also, I moved to the West Coast to get away from all the weird formal gatekeepy BS. A suit every day is not my style.

[Deucey]

26 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Oh, then I didn't phrase that well. I think the county executives should be able to opine on funding for the suburban divisions of the network, but if anything they should have far less power over the regional. It's things like ESA that shouldn't be allowed to happen, and people like Ed Mangano who shouldn't have a seat at the table. I said it seemed like picking a fight because at no point did I endorse ending the lease agreement, and I can't really figure out where in my comment it seemed like I said that. It seems like you just put the words in my mouth.

Granted, I don't understand NY Law having every square foot of territory being in a city or town, or how a village can have the same name as the town surrounding it but it's own mayor and council, but still having a county legislature that can't mandate what a town or village can or can't do. But the county government does exist, and because how  and its subsidiaries move in the Bronx directly or indirectly affects folks in Garden City, Nassau has an interest in  ops since the buses over the Throggs Neck connect county residents and workers to the LIRR and NICE.

That's why you can't exclude County Execs from a reimagined  Board - even if they're corrupt ass Republicans like Ed Mangano, or end up a corrupt ass Dem like Sheldon Silver.

Like it or not, Westchester, the Boroughs and Long Island are an integrated economy. If this were the EU NYC is Germany and the rest need us doing well to not suffer a la Greece & Italy c. 2010.

Easier to have buy-in with everyone at the table vs imposition and fragmentation (is the stupid brouhaha over mandatory masks).

48 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Also, look, I get that you've been on the forum for a few years. You have your allegiances. But there's history to some of the remarks here. Some of us, like myself, @GojiMet86, obviously @Cait Sith, have been on this forum for the better part of ten or more years.

"Allegiance" has nothing to do with it; however the history does. There's been several times recently when you and @Via Garibaldi 8 have had these heated moments that went beyond differences in perspective on an issue. And they took up pages over several threads with no resolution, and his politics were specifically cited - including that he stumped for candidates via his sig here in the forums.

So I can see there's deep and political feelings there. My questions to you:  1) Are they always there? 2) Are they furthering discussion or giving us a text version of a Worldstar subway fight? 3) At what point have you "paid him back" to where you don't see ulterior motive or hypocrisy in every post he makes or action he takes?

Until FB nuked my 5k+ membership Black politics group last week, I dealt with conservatives and Trumpsters who were expert at poking bears and playing victim. I grew up around Rush's Dittoheads who did the same - especially when they learned my brother was a DNC head and TV politics analyst. Do I know how to identify. And VG8 doesn't fit the profile from what I've seen here lurking for two years and active for two. That's not "allegiance" - that's my learned observation. And my observation with you is that that history still has you mad when you see his name and reply - mad like a friendship ended. Like Foxy & Kim.

If I'm wrong, lmk.

[Deucey]

25 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

God, thanks for making me feel old now🤣😭(joined at 19, currently 31)

I'm 40. Wait til the gray nose hairs show up.

[B35 via Church]

23 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

To be honest I don't think this would be that bad. It's not as obvious a red flag as, say, having posters of anime waifus all over the place. Personally, I indulge myself with historic maps, so I can just say I like vintage things if anyone asks questions. But rollsigns aren't immediately weird to me, the same way that I wouldn't be weirded out if someone's room was full of Patriots memorabilia. (Approving of that is a different story.)

The unfortunate reality is that transit enthusiasts have long had a negative stigma appended to them... Sure, you, nor (likely) any of us in this online transit community or whatever wouldn't deem it as being that bad, but if you think someone that isn't a transit enthusiast wouldn't.....

18 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Damn, so you're telling me I should hide the six-foot furry, but keep the rollsigns? I wish somebody had warned me earlier.

I've done all the remote interviews in the dining room, with no fux given.... My bedroom is as bland as it gets; no posters, figurines, nothing of the sort.... As long as I don't aim the camera on the floor (where you'll see a couple of corrugated boxes of sports cards & TCG cards), I don't have anything to worry about....

Out of the 4 (initial/first round) interviews (3 out of the 4 went to the second round, and 1 out of those 3 went to a 3rd round; which is this place I work for now) I've done w/ different companies, 2 out of the 4 were done in their kitchen, 1 was in the bedroom, and 1 was in a basement!

Edited November 25, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Deucey]

13 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Damn, so you're telling me I should hide the six-foot furry, but keep the rollsigns? I wish somebody had warned me earlier.

Thank God I got rid of my Fast & Furious and Super Street magazine posters before Zoom became a thing.

[Cait Sith]

2 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I'm 40. Wait til the gray nose hairs show up.

Chill, I got them in my beard and in my hair already.

[MHV9218]

5 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

I've done all the remote interviews in the dining room, with no fux given.... My bedroom is as bland as it gets; no posters, figurines, nothing of the sort.... As long as I don't aim the camera on the floor (where you'll see a couple of corrugated boxes of sports cards & TCG cards), I don't have anything to worry about....

Out of the 4 (initial/first round) interviews (3 out of the 4 went to the second round, and 1 out those these went to a 3rd round; which is this place I work for now), 2 out of the 4 were done in their kitchen, 1 was in the bedroom, and 1 was in a basement!

See, I'm in the sad state where I have to move to the kitchen for the classier interviews. Cause at least it's a kitchen, bland, ugly, nobody can hold it against me. The bedroom is the full subway memorabilia 'is my guy...good?' situation. 

3 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

Chill, I got them in my beard and in my hair already.

I started going grey up top at twenty, same thing with my parents. Had a college gf who tried to convince me I could pick them out one-by-one...forever. Thinking, that genie's out the bottle, but your input is appreciated...