So this whole bus fare payment restart thing...

[Deucey]

Has a date been set? Have they figured out what shield system they're gonna use to protect operators and get rid of the shower curtains blocking the front 1/3 of the bus?

Have they made any in depth announcement yet?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Has a date been set? Have they figured out what shield system they're gonna use to protect operators and get rid of the shower curtains blocking the front 1/3 of the bus?

Have they made any in depth announcement yet?

The problem is they haven't finished with any of the installations yet. I was told sometime in August, but both the express buses and the local buses were supposed to have changes made to them. The express buses have never stopped having the fare collected, but shower curtains were supposed to be installed on all of them.  I've only been on a handful of express buses that have had shower curtains so far and I haven't seen any alterations on the local buses, so we don't appear to be close at all to resuming fare collection on the local buses.

[Deucey]

19 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The problem is they haven't finished with any of the installations yet. I was told sometime in August, but both the express buses and the local buses were supposed to have changes made to them. The express buses have never stopped having the fare collected, but shower curtains were supposed to be installed on all of them.  I've only been on a handful of express buses that have had shower curtains so far and I haven't seen any alterations on the local buses, so we don't appear to be close at all to resuming fare collection on the local buses.

I can give some "understanding" on a delay due to the COVID Stimulus talks falling apart in Congress, but it seems simultaneously like another situation where no one in NY has a plan, no one's trying to make one or give an update on what is known, and we're gonna find out on a Sunday that they're implementing everything at 5am the next day.

[lornaevo]

I see they moved the white line passengers must stand behind on the local buses at my depot. So i guess that’s how they plan to protect us. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

I can give some "understanding" on a delay due to the COVID Stimulus talks falling apart in Congress, but it seems simultaneously like another situation where no one in NY has a plan, no one's trying to make one or give an update on what is known, and we're gonna find out on a Sunday that they're implementing everything at 5am the next day.

I was told that sufficient notice would be given. I was on two conference calls this week with the asking for my input on some things. I believe they're aware of the uproar that would happen so, hopefully they get this right.

[RtrainBlues]

Most of the people I see riding buses are only riding them now since they're free.  They get on for a half mile and then get off.  Or they bring their entire family on the bus to go to a shopping center a mile away.  The vast majority of passengers would likely disappear once fare payment resumes.  Don't know why the MTA would go to all this trouble during the pandemic (both time and money).  The "return on investment" won't be that great at all.  May even be a net money loser to install these partitions.  Better to keep them free until the vaccine or therapeutic arrives, and then the hordes of riders will once again return and there won't be need for partitions.

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, RtrainBlues said:

Most of the people I see riding buses are only riding them now since they're free.  They get on for a half mile and then get off.  Or they bring their entire family on the bus to go to a shopping center a mile away.  The vast majority of passengers would likely disappear once fare payment resumes.  Don't know why the MTA would go to all this trouble during the pandemic (both time and money).  The "return on investment" won't be that great at all.  May even be a net money loser to install these partitions.  Better to keep them free until the vaccine or therapeutic arrives, and then the hordes of riders will once again return and there won't be need for partitions.

If  operated a system - like most US transit agencies with rail lines - where buses operated as a feeder and distributor of train riders, they could get away with this since in those systems, you pay fare on the bus, prove you paid a fare on the train (no additional fare taken), and get a free transfer to the bus on your third leg. But since NYC is a two-fare zone if. you have a three-leg commute that requires a bus, and buses run as a separate revenue entity from subway (Surface Ops vs Rail Ops), needs that money.

Its what happens when the system is designed to nickel and dime first and provide service second instead of provide service first - boosts farebox recovery ratios but makes you more susceptible to ridership drops on one mode than you would be if it was all integrated.

[FamousNYLover]

I was wondering if  buses will side seat behind bus driver will be remove? One single seat that always near bus driver on M60 SBS, Q52/Q53 SBS, M14A/D SBS, M34/A SBS?

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by FamousNYLover

[Mtatransit]

31 minutes ago, Deucey said:

If  operated a system - like most US transit agencies with rail lines - where buses operated as a feeder and distributor of train riders, they could get away with this since in those systems, you pay fare on the bus, prove you paid a fare on the train (no additional fare taken), and get a free transfer to the bus on your third leg. But since NYC is a two-fare zone if. you have a three-leg commute that requires a bus, and buses run as a separate revenue entity from subway (Surface Ops vs Rail Ops), needs that money.

Its what happens when the system is designed to nickel and dime first and provide service second instead of provide service first - boosts farebox recovery ratios but makes you more susceptible to ridership drops on one mode than you would be if it was all integrated.

Its still better than NJ transit's model where the two modes seems to be competing for the same passengers

6 hours ago, lornaevo said:

I see they moved the white line passengers must stand behind on the local buses at my depot. So i guess that’s how they plan to protect us. 

I hope thats not what it will end up happening. There is no way in hell NYers would listen to these lines, in fact they don't listen to these lines even under regular operations, and the operator either have to not move the bus till everyone is behind the line and incur a wrath of compliants or just go with the flow. 

[NewFlyer 230]

4 hours ago, RtrainBlues said:

Most of the people I see riding buses are only riding them now since they're free.  They get on for a half mile and then get off.  Or they bring their entire family on the bus to go to a shopping center a mile away.  The vast majority of passengers would likely disappear once fare payment resumes.  Don't know why the MTA would go to all this trouble during the pandemic (both time and money).  The "return on investment" won't be that great at all.  May even be a net money loser to install these partitions.  Better to keep them free until the vaccine or therapeutic arrives, and then the hordes of riders will once again return and there won't be need for partitions.

The  in its current state can’t afford to keep letting people ride for free even with whatever federal money they received. For those who transfer between bus and subway will simply have to dip their cards on the bus, but there are a lot of people who just use the bus to reach their destinations. The reintroduction of the fare on buses will most likely cause some problems but I can see that happening whether they reintroduce the fare tomorrow or 6 months from now. That’s the reaction you’ll get when something that you used to get for free is now costing you something. Whatever profit they can get from bus only travel they need to get it. 

[Mtatransit]

18 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

The  in its current state can’t afford to keep letting people ride for free even with whatever federal money they received. For those who transfer between bus and subway will simply have to dip their cards on the bus, but there are a lot of people who just use the bus to reach their destinations. The reintroduction of the fare on buses will most likely cause some problems but I can see that happening whether they reintroduce the fare tomorrow or 6 months from now. That’s the reaction you’ll get when something that you used to get for free is now costing you something. Whatever profit they can get from bus only travel they need to get it. 

The MTA is in a MUCH bigger hole than collecting a few million dollars in fares. We are talking about BILLIONS just to get through 2020, when they need BILLIONS more to balance the budget in 2021

At some point the cost in collecting the fare becomes greater than the actual fares collected

Edited August 14, 2020 by Mtatransit

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Its still better than NJ transit's model where the two modes seems to be competing for the same passengers

They don't compete with each other... The bus model picks up the slack that the rail model does not/can not....

Either way, buses & trains in NJ don't complement each other (or, aren't cohesive with one another)...

Edited August 14, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Mtatransit]

18 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

They don't compete with each other... The bus model picks up the slack that the rail does not/can not....

Either way, buses & trains in NJ don't complement each other.

They could advertise the connections between trains and buses out there. 

What I was thinking is to allow single use ticket users one zone ride on buses at their orginating/destination stations

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Mtatransit

[B35 via Church]

4 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

They could advertise the connections between trains and buses out there. 

What I was thinking is to allow single use ticket users one zone ride on buses at their orginating/destination stations

As long as you have a bus model whose network is comprised of intrastate routes vs. interstate routes, forget it... You aren't getting people to abandon the interstate/full service bus routes, for the train-to-bus concept....

[NewFlyer 230]

6 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

The MTA is in a MUCH bigger hole than collecting a few million dollars in fares. We are talking about BILLIONS just to get through 2020, when they need BILLIONS more to balance the budget in 2021

At some point the cost in collecting the fare becomes greater than the actual fares collected

Shoot I guess either way, we should expect to see some major cuts worst than the ones from 2010. I can see most of the service that the MTA brought back from the 2010 cuts being cut again. I can see routes like the Bx20 and M98 for example being eliminated for good. I can see overnight service on some routes either being reduced or cut all together and so much more. Things are not looking good at all.

[Mtatransit]

40 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

As long as you have a bus model whose network is comprised of intrastate routes vs. interstate routes, forget it... You aren't getting people to abandon the interstate/full service bus routes, for the train-to-bus concept....

Train to bus make sense only if timed properly. But I don't think commuters/and NJT will be willing to put up with that, it simply is too big of a change, and plus the reliability/capacity issues of the rail system. Interstate vs Intrastate seems to be a big thing in NJ. There are parallel buses serving both NY and Newark on some routes. In fact, I think what NJT do best is to bring people into NY and thats about it.

That being said, when I do take the rail out there, I do feel like anyone transferring between buses and rail is a secondary thought to anyone riding the system (except at Metropark).  I know from personal experience that I did forgo transferring to the train to save on paying for a extra ride, or walked instead of taking a bus after getting off the train.

Better fare intergration here would better utilize the buses NJT is already running. It may also change some ridership patterns. But thats for another forums to discuss

40 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Shoot I guess either way, we should expect to see some major cuts worst than the ones from 2010. I can see most of the service that the MTA brought back from the 2010 cuts being cut again. I can see routes like the Bx20 and M98 for example being eliminated for good. I can see overnight service on some routes either being reduced or cut all together and so much more. Things are not looking good at all.

Service elimination most likely wouldn't be enough. In 2010 all the MTA ended up saving was 67 million dollars.

[B35 via Church]

26 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

Train to bus make sense only if timed properly. But I don't think commuters/and NJT will be willing to put up with that, it simply is too big of a change, and plus the reliability/capacity issues of the rail system. Interstate vs Intrastate seems to be a big thing in NJ. There are parallel buses serving both NY and Newark on some routes. In fact, I think what NJT do best is to bring people into NY and thats about it.

That being said, when I do take the rail out there, I do feel like anyone transferring between buses and rail is a secondary thought to anyone riding the system (except at Metropark).  I know from personal experience that I did forgo transferring to the train to save on paying for a extra ride, or walked instead of taking a bus after getting off the train.

Better fare intergration here would better utilize the buses NJT is already running. It may also change some ridership patterns. But thats for another forums to discuss

Sure, it theoretically makes sense if the connections are timed.... However, what I'm saying is that even if they are (timed), they're still not going to be bothered with it..... The point about the interstate (routes) vs. intrastate being a big thing, is the very point I'm making..... Hell, I even make a joke about it - NJ's 2 biggest downtown's aren't even in the same state (Philly & NYC)

The bus-to-train commuting method is far more prevalent here in the city.

 

[RtrainBlues]

11 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

The MTA is in a MUCH bigger hole than collecting a few million dollars in fares. We are talking about BILLIONS just to get through 2020, when they need BILLIONS more to balance the budget in 2021

At some point the cost in collecting the fare becomes greater than the actual fares collected

Exactly - the cost in collecting minimal bus fares may likely be greater than the actual fares collected.  It may be a money loser.

By using subway ridership's vast declines, we can estimate how much bus ridership may decline if fares are re-instituted.  Will hordes of drivers be furloughed if this happens?  Will drivers refuse to drive if they don't feel safe with a partition during a pandemic?  Will they sue and take it to court?

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, RtrainBlues said:

Exactly - the cost in collecting minimal bus fares may likely be greater than the actual fares collected.  It may be a money loser.

By using subway ridership's vast declines, we can estimate how much bus ridership may decline if fares are re-instituted.....

Quite sure there's some stat floating around somewhere that illustrates the percentage of commuters whose commutes are [bus only] vs. [rail only (or some combination of bus-to-train)] here....

What I can safely say is that the ratio of bus commuters to train commuters (either within NYC, or in & out of NYC) is definitely not 1:1 (in other words, every one that uses the subway isn't coming off a bus, and vice versa).... What I can also safely say is there are more people who's commute does not consist of using a bus, compared to commuters that do not use the subway.....

[checkmatechamp13]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Quite sure there's some stat floating around somewhere that illustrates the percentage of commuters whose commutes are [bus only] vs. [rail only (or some combination of bus-to-train)] here....

What I can safely say is that the ratio of bus commuters to train commuters (either within NYC, or in & out of NYC) is definitely not 1:1 (in other words, every one that uses the subway isn't coming off a bus, and vice versa).... What I can also safely say is there are more people who's commute does not consist of using a bus, compared to commuters that do not use the subway.....

In the Brooklyn & Bronx bus redesign Existing Conditions Reports, they said it was something like 1/3 single bus, 1/3 bus->bus and 1/3 bus->subway (they broke it down by route but most were in that general range)

[B35 via Church]

27 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

In the Brooklyn & Bronx bus redesign Existing Conditions Reports, they said it was something like 1/3 single bus, 1/3 bus->bus and 1/3 bus->subway (they broke it down by route but most were in that general range)

Of commutes that involve the use of a bus (at minimum), I can see that being the case.... Of course, that breakdown doesn't factor in subway only commuters.

[QM1to6Ave]

How close is OMNY to being activated on more buses? It seems to be installed on pretty much every M15 and M34 bus I go on now 

[MysteriousBtrain]

8 minutes ago, QM1to6Ave said:

How close is OMNY to being activated on more buses? It seems to be installed on pretty much every M15 and M34 bus I go on now 

Most if not all SBS buses in Manhattan are able to use OMNY onboard now

[Via Garibaldi 8]

21 minutes ago, QM1to6Ave said:

How close is OMNY to being activated on more buses? It seems to be installed on pretty much every M15 and M34 bus I go on now 

When I first met with the  in 2019 or late 2018, the plan was end of this year for all buses (local and express) (I asked them and they were very upbeat about it - huge investment, so no going back now lol) and from their board meetings, they appear to still be on schedule and on budget. Being done in stages to ensure that there are no security and reliability issues.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Deucey]

On 8/13/2020 at 5:44 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I was told that sufficient notice would be given. I was on two conference calls this week with the asking for my input on some things. I believe they're aware of the uproar that would happen so, hopefully they get this right.

What do they consider sufficient?

They gave us the  and  closures months in advance, but mentioned the Lex overnight and weekend shutdown Tuesday last week before it started this week.