Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[BrooklynBus]

I disagree. People do not like change when most of the changes are not beneficial. The MTA is either incompetent in proposing beneficial proposals or just don’t want to. 
 

In 1978, when I made my Southwest Brooklyn proposals from the Department of City Planning, very few proposals were disliked, so we removed them. Then the MTA tried to make major modifications to what I proposed and the communities rejected all the MTA proposed changes. Three Boards approved my changes, and the other three abstained. No Board voted negatively.

Among the changes the MTA tried to make was to put the B4 on West 6 Street. Rejected. They insisted on running both the B36 and B74 on Mermaid westbound. That change lasted three months. Then they insisted on running the B11 to Canarsie when I only proposed Coney Island Avenue to test demand. The community thought the route would be too long and unreliable and suggested a compromise at Flatbush Avenue. The MTA stated Canarsie or it remains at 18 Ave. Reluctantly, they gave their okay. The change only lasted about three years and the MTA finally agreed to Flatbush Avenue. 
 

Bottom line, every MTA change didn’t work out. That’s why I say that the problem isn’t people don’t like change. They just don’t like bad changes. 

[LGA Link N Train]

On 8/13/2024 at 1:39 AM, BrooklynBus said:

The MTA is either incompetent in proposing beneficial proposals or just don’t want to. 

 

On 8/13/2024 at 1:39 AM, BrooklynBus said:

Bottom line, every MTA change didn’t work out. That’s why I say that the problem isn’t people don’t like change. They just don’t like bad changes. 

Almost as if those in charge of planning bus routes are either too worried about the impacts on the operating costs or are simply out of touch with the communities they serve.

[BrooklynBus]

8 hours ago, LGA Link N Train said:

 

Almost as if those in charge of planning bus routes are either too worried about the impacts on the operating costs or are simply out of touch with the communities they serve.

It’s actually both. 

[B35 via Church]

On 8/11/2024 at 7:11 AM, LGA Link N Train said:

Its been a while since I kept up with the Queens Bus Redesign, but as far as I remember from the Final Draft Plan. All its done is minor tweaks to bus routes while eliminating a bunch of Stops. To me that defeats the purpose of having a Bus Network Redesign in the first place.

I think it's pretty clear that they're going about these redesigns for the wrong reasons.... Quite honestly, I think the MTA isn't doing much more than following the trend of redesigning bus networks.... They've historically been playing from behind anyway (do I even have to bring up tap & go payment being a "new" concept in 2019!?)....

On 8/11/2024 at 1:24 PM, TheNextGen2009 said:

I realized that I asked this question in the Random Thoughts thread knowing it wasn't the right place to ask there.

One thing that's got me thinking is that, judging that the MTA is going forward with the Local, Limited, and Rush stuff, how are they going to tell the routes apart? Are bus stops going to color code the routes? Maybe have the destination signs change color to that appropriate service (which I know is pretty much not possible)? I really do wonder how this is all going to fare with passengers once this thing is implemented.

The whole thing just obfuscates matters.... It's something I made commentary on in earlier discussions on here.... I'm vehemently against the notion of every bus route in the network being whittled down to being of only one service type (solely local... solely limited... solely a rush route).... One corridor in a local bus network shouldn't only be served by a bus route operating as a skip-stop variant.... It ultimately creates an unwarranted disjointedness in the local network altogether....

As far as how they're going to portray/differentiate the routes on the bus stop poles & destination signs, well I think for the latter, they'd just add another frame on the rush routes to read "RUSH".... On the bus stop signs, save for the SBS', they just might regress into having everything be one solid color (blue) - as no route would have more than one service type anyway....

On 8/12/2024 at 5:47 PM, m7zanr160s said:

Yes, it had to be majorly scaled back because people don't like change. It could have been revolutionary, but people... But if things stay the same, then someone's gonna complain about how things need to improve. You can't win.

Your conclusion as to why it was scaled back, ignores the actual criticisms of riders that would've stood to be negatively affected by what was being proposed....

On 8/12/2024 at 6:39 PM, BrooklynBus said:

I disagree. People do not like change when most of the changes are not beneficial.

Yeah, I don't agree with that premise either.... At all.

That whole "people don't like change" rhetoric is often blurted out with the intent to convey that any/all change is good.... It is most certainly not & for damn sure, the MTA doesn't get anything remotely close to a benefit of a doubt....

On 8/15/2024 at 6:03 AM, LGA Link N Train said:

Almost as if those in charge of planning bus routes are either too worried about the impacts on the operating costs or are simply out of touch with the communities they serve.

As was said, it's both....  The latter of the two I get particularly miffed by - and with each passing decade, the whole "too big to fail" attitude they exude, only worsens.... At this point, they may as well overtly say just take what we give you & STFU..... Their attempt to try to connect with the riding public is so phony & so cringe, it's not even funny....

[TheNextGen2009]

46 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

I'm vehemently against the notion of every bus route in the network being whittled down to being of only one service type (solely local... solely limited... solely a rush route)....

I 100% agree with you. That was my biggest gripe with this whole redesign. Even more baffling when taking into the account that it's just the current Local/Limited stop service with added steps. A Rush is no different than a current Limited, and a Limited is little to no different than a Local it seems. Not only that, but now the Bronx Bus Redesign is going to be outdated by the time this thing is implemented. 

[m7zanr160s]

Yeah, we're gonna have to agree to disagree here. I think having 7 different bus lines making all stops on a corridor is bad. Rush routes are are good idea. Imagine if Montauk branch LIRR trains made local stops all the way up to Babylon... Every one talks how many people are being inconvenienced by these changes, but who's really losing service? If you overlay the current routes on top of the redesigned routes on the Remix map it's almost the same thing; routes are just being streamlined. People complain about stop removal: for the elderly, I'm pretty sure they're always told to be active or get exercise when they visit their physicians, so what's an extra block or two walk going to hurt?  If they're not healthy enough for that, they shouldn't be riding standard mass transit anyway, but instead take Access-A-Ride. In terms of bus speeds: to me common sense says the less stops, the faster the trip. I don't need an extensive study on that. I'm pretty sure that a driver merely being aware of a stop slows the trip down at least a little. I ride NICE bus occasionally and I think their bus stops are nicely spaced, so that usually equates to a pretty smooth trip. Also, no matter how good the redesign is, people are going to be inconvenienced, period. The change effects too many people. All they, the MTA, can do is create a map that is streamlined and efficient, and makes sense. Certainly tweaks can me made down the line, but they have to start somewhere. When Grand Central Madison opened up, people were complaining to high heaven, but the MTA kept their word and continued to make adjustments and I think there are a lot more satisfied people now. I'm looking forward to the Queens Bus Redesign. It'll definitely make my commute better, and my stop is being removed. The extra block I have to walk is fine by me.

[The TransitMan]

48 minutes ago, m7zanr160s said:

Yeah, we're gonna have to agree to disagree here. I think having 7 different bus lines making all stops on a corridor is bad. Rush routes are are good idea. Imagine if Montauk branch LIRR trains made local stops all the way up to Babylon... Every one talks how many people are being inconvenienced by these changes, but who's really losing service? If you overlay the current routes on top of the redesigned routes on the Remix map it's almost the same thing; routes are just being streamlined. People complain about stop removal: for the elderly, I'm pretty sure they're always told to be active or get exercise when they visit their physicians, so what's an extra block or two walk going to hurt?  If they're not healthy enough for that, they shouldn't be riding standard mass transit anyway, but instead take Access-A-Ride. In terms of bus speeds: to me common sense says the less stops, the faster the trip. I don't need an extensive study on that. I'm pretty sure that a driver merely being aware of a stop slows the trip down at least a little. I ride NICE bus occasionally and I think their bus stops are nicely spaced, so that usually equates to a pretty smooth trip. Also, no matter how good the redesign is, people are going to be inconvenienced, period. The change effects too many people. All they, the MTA, can do is create a map that is streamlined and efficient, and makes sense. Certainly tweaks can me made down the line, but they have to start somewhere. When Grand Central Madison opened up, people were complaining to high heaven, but the MTA kept their word and continued to make adjustments and I think there are a lot more satisfied people now. I'm looking forward to the Queens Bus Redesign. It'll definitely make my commute better, and my stop is being removed. The extra block I have to walk is fine by me.

Yeah I can imagine...it's the 12:42 AM from Jamaica to Montauk (Weekends only)
                                           the 1:03 AM from Jamaica to Montauk (Weeknights only)
                                           the 5:36 PM from Jamaica to Montauk (Thursday/Friday only)
                                           the 6:31 PM and 8:50 PM from Jamaica to Montauk (Weekday evenings only)

                                           the 1:01 AM, 11:30 AM and 10:04 PM from Montauk to Jamaica (Weekdays and Weeknights only)

 

ALL trains I listed, first stop (eastbound)/last stop (westbound) is Babylon. Yeah I can imagine as I take some of those trains regularly. Now were you referring to trains from Jamaica TO Babylon? If so, you did not indicate that.

 

On topic...I think THIS redesign is going to be (if anything) a mixed bag of pleased and disgusted. Some of the changes I see happening EVEN if the redesign doesn't work. As far as bus stops go, I'm noticing more and more bus stops being moved not for "redesign" purposes but for complaints like home owners who request the MTA to move the stop for a variety of reasons.

Edited August 17 by The TransitMan

[m7zanr160s]

3 hours ago, The TransitMan said:

Yeah I can imagine...it's the 12:42 AM from Jamaica to Montauk (Weekends only)
                                           the 1:03 AM from Jamaica to Montauk (Weeknights only)
                                           the 5:36 PM from Jamaica to Montauk (Thursday/Friday only)
                                           the 6:31 PM and 8:50 PM from Jamaica to Montauk (Weekday evenings only)

                                           the 1:01 AM, 11:30 AM and 10:04 PM from Montauk to Jamaica (Weekdays and Weeknights only)

 

ALL trains I listed, first stop (eastbound)/last stop (westbound) is Babylon. Yeah I can imagine as I take some of those trains regularly. Now were you referring to trains from Jamaica TO Babylon? If so, you did not indicate that.

 

On topic...I think THIS redesign is going to be (if anything) a mixed bag of pleased and disgusted. Some of the changes I see happening EVEN if the redesign doesn't work. As far as bus stops go, I'm noticing more and more bus stops being moved not for "redesign" purposes but for complaints like home owners who request the MTA to move the stop for a variety of reasons.

None of those trains make local stops between Jamaica and Babylon. My point was that the railroad essentially has RUSH routes that are designed to get people to their long distance branch as fast as possible, with the shorter branches handling the stops in between. My Q85 route will become RUSH, with the Q5 handling local duties on Merrick Boulevard. Sounds like a sound plan to me.

[NewFlyer 230]

Any true redesign would cost more than what the MTA’s has now. I was disappointed with that last redesign plan because it just didn’t do enough and they screwed up some previously good proposed routes. I don’t like how they routed the Q75 in the new plan. I believe it’s should more or less stick to its old route, the only difference I would do is extend it down to Jamaica LIRR making less stops on Hillside and Jamaica Aves as a rush route. 
Here are a few of my own route proposals for the redesign.

Q50: if the MTA is all in with this route going to LGA then it shouldn’t be making any stops past west of the  at Main Street.

Q25: College Point 5th Ave to Jamaica LIRR. Limited between Roosevelt Ave and Jamaica LIRR all day including weekends except evenings and overnight hours. Overnight it would run local and replace the Q34. 

Q34: Flushing Main Street to Jamaica Ave 153rd street. It would be all local.  I’m fine with the MTA’s proposed Q61 running down Willets Point Blvd. A majority of the ridership is splits at Main Street Rosevelt Ave anyways. 
 

Q71: I would bring this route back from the first proposed plan. The current Q77 is terrible. It’s infrequent, ends early, it doesn’t continue down to 147th street, it’s often missing runs increasing wait times. The MTA sees this route as a jokes. I would have the Q77 keeps its current service levels and have the Q71 routing run in addition.  

During the weekdays I would have most Q27’s end at Queens Village LIRR while some end would end at Horace Harding. During the weekends it be 50/50.

Little Neck Parkway: I would bring back the Q79 destination and have it pair with the Q36. I would have the Q79 run between Flushing Main Street and 257th street Jericho Turnpike. It would run as a rush route making limited stops along Northern Blvd and Sanford Ave. I would have the Q36 run between Jamaica 165th street terminal and 40th Ave & Little Neck Parkway, and have it run as a rush route along Hillside Ave. I don’t think this route needs to run along Jamaica Ave, the route should be more direct. During rush hours I would have the Q36 and Q79 run every half hour each and every 40-60 minutes each all other hours. My goal would be to provide a one seat ride along Little Neck Parkway between both Flushing and Jamaica. It’s not a high ridership area so I don’t think it would be a loss if half the service went to Flushing instead.

Q19: needs later service and more frequent service. It is a shame they left the route mainly the same. 
The Q88 needs later weekend service, and earlier Sunday service. I know some are upset at the Q30 being dismantled but I do think the Q88 should run along Horace Harding to Springfield Blvd and terminate at QCC when school is open.

Q26: I would have the Q26 run between Flushing Main Street & Little Neck Parkway & Horace Harding Expressway. I would have the Q20 take over the northern half of the Q65’s route north of Roosevelt Ave.

This is not everything but I’ve already wrote enough. If the goal is to get more people out of theirs cars a lot more service would need to be added to the system to accommodate all the new riders. I believe a lot more thought needs to go into the redesigned system before changes are made. 

[The TransitMan]

2 hours ago, m7zanr160s said:

None of those trains make local stops between Jamaica and Babylon. My point was that the railroad essentially has RUSH routes that are designed to get people to their long distance branch as fast as possible, with the shorter branches handling the stops in between. My Q85 route will become RUSH, with the Q5 handling local duties on Merrick Boulevard. Sounds like a sound plan to me.

 

6 hours ago, The TransitMan said:

Now were you referring to trains from Jamaica TO Babylon? If so, you did not indicate that.

 

On topic...I think THIS redesign is going to be (if anything) a mixed bag of pleased and disgusted. Some of the changes I see happening EVEN if the redesign doesn't work. As far as bus stops go, I'm noticing more and more bus stops being moved not for "redesign" purposes but for complaints like home owners who request the MTA to move the stop for a variety of reasons.

Like I said before you did not indicate that.

 

On topic, yes I agree with you on the Merrick Blvd corridor. It might work out BUT that Q86 and Q87 needs to be on point for it to work. 

Edited August 18 by The TransitMan

[The TransitMan]

1 hour ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Any true redesign would cost more than what the MTA’s has now. I was disappointed with that last redesign plan because it just didn’t do enough and they screwed up some previously good proposed routes. I don’t like how they routed the Q75 in the new plan. I believe it’s should more or less stick to its old route, the only difference I would do is extend it down to Jamaica LIRR making less stops on Hillside and Jamaica Aves as a rush route. 
Here are a few of my own route proposals for the redesign.

Q50: if the MTA is all in with this route going to LGA then it shouldn’t be making any stops past west of the  at Main Street.

Q25: College Point 5th Ave to Jamaica LIRR. Limited between Roosevelt Ave and Jamaica LIRR all day including weekends except evenings and overnight hours. Overnight it would run local and replace the Q34. 

Q34: Flushing Main Street to Jamaica Ave 153rd street. It would be all local.  I’m fine with the MTA’s proposed Q61 running down Willets Point Blvd. A majority of the ridership is splits at Main Street Rosevelt Ave anyways. 
 

Q71: I would bring this route back from the first proposed plan. The current Q77 is terrible. It’s infrequent, ends early, it doesn’t continue down to 147th street, it’s often missing runs increasing wait times. The MTA sees this route as a jokes. I would have the Q77 keeps its current service levels and have the Q71 routing run in addition.  

During the weekdays I would have most Q27’s end at Queens Village LIRR while some end would end at Horace Harding. During the weekends it be 50/50.

Little Neck Parkway: I would bring back the Q79 destination and have it pair with the Q36. I would have the Q79 run between Flushing Main Street and 257th street Jericho Turnpike. It would run as a rush route making limited stops along Northern Blvd and Sanford Ave. I would have the Q36 run between Jamaica 165th street terminal and 40th Ave & Little Neck Parkway, and have it run as a rush route along Hillside Ave. I don’t think this route needs to run along Jamaica Ave, the route should be more direct. During rush hours I would have the Q36 and Q79 run every half hour each and every 40-60 minutes each all other hours. My goal would be to provide a one seat ride along Little Neck Parkway between both Flushing and Jamaica. It’s not a high ridership area so I don’t think it would be a loss if half the service went to Flushing instead.

Q19: needs later service and more frequent service. It is a shame they left the route mainly the same. 
The Q88 needs later weekend service, and earlier Sunday service. I know some are upset at the Q30 being dismantled but I do think the Q88 should run along Horace Harding to Springfield Blvd and terminate at QCC when school is open.

Q26: I would have the Q26 run between Flushing Main Street & Little Neck Parkway & Horace Harding Expressway. I would have the Q20 take over the northern half of the Q65’s route north of Roosevelt Ave.

This is not everything but I’ve already wrote enough. If the goal is to get more people out of theirs cars a lot more service would need to be added to the system to accommodate all the new riders. I believe a lot more thought needs to go into the redesigned system before changes are made. 

That's a DAMN good idea. I actually like that!

 

What was the Q71?

[Q43LTD]

2 hours ago, The TransitMan said:

That's a DAMN good idea. I actually like that!

 

What was the Q71?

In the first draft, it ran between Bay Terrace and Rockaway Blvd. In the second draft, it was labeled the Q78. It was a route that basically the entire length of Springfield Blvd. One of the few proposals that I liked

[NewFlyer 230]

13 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

In the first draft, it ran between Bay Terrace and Rockaway Blvd. In the second draft, it was labeled the Q78. It was a route that basically the entire length of Springfield Blvd. One of the few proposals that I liked

It was one of the few proposed routes that made sense especially given how the current Q77 is ran like dog crap. Just yesterday I need to transfer to the Q27 from the Q77 and me a few others at the 77’s first stop waited over a half an hour while not in service buses passed. Finally one bus pulls around the corner about 15 minutes later than it was suppose to and the actual ride to the Q27 is only about 10-12 minutes. A shame it can take damn near an hour just to go from North Conduit to Queens Village LIRR.

[The TransitMan]

41 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

It was one of the few proposed routes that made sense especially given how the current Q77 is ran like dog crap. Just yesterday I need to transfer to the Q27 from the Q77 and me a few others at the 77’s first stop waited over a half an hour while not in service buses passed. Finally one bus pulls around the corner about 15 minutes later than it was suppose to and the actual ride to the Q27 is only about 10-12 minutes. A shame it can take damn near an hour just to go from North Conduit to Queens Village LIRR.

Yesterday being Saturday, maybe that was why you waited longer than normal. I know it's what every 10-15 minutes during the weekday?

[Q43LTD]

5 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

It was one of the few proposed routes that made sense especially given how the current Q77 is ran like dog crap. Just yesterday I need to transfer to the Q27 from the Q77 and me a few others at the 77’s first stop waited over a half an hour while not in service buses passed. Finally one bus pulls around the corner about 15 minutes later than it was suppose to and the actual ride to the Q27 is only about 10-12 minutes. A shame it can take damn near an hour just to go from North Conduit to Queens Village LIRR.

The sad part is they have the 77 proposed to end at Rockaway by JFK depot. A through Springfield and a through Linden route were one of the few proposals that I liked. 

Edited August 19 by Q43LTD

[Gotham Bus Co]

On 8/17/2024 at 1:03 PM, B35 via Church said:

That whole "people don't like change" rhetoric is often blurted out with the intent to convey that any/all change is good.... It is most certainly not & for damn sure, the MTA doesn't get anything remotely close to a benefit of a doubt....

 

Some folks genuinely believe that any/all change is bad — even if they would benefit (or at least not lose) from the change, they'll still oppose it if others would also benefit.

[B35 via Church]

42 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co said:

Some folks genuinely believe that any/all change is bad — even if they would benefit (or at least not lose) from the change, they'll still oppose it if others would also benefit.

You're trying too hard.

[N6 Limited]

On 8/18/2024 at 2:21 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

It was one of the few proposed routes that made sense especially given how the current Q77 is ran like dog crap. Just yesterday I need to transfer to the Q27 from the Q77 and me a few others at the 77’s first stop waited over a half an hour while not in service buses passed. Finally one bus pulls around the corner about 15 minutes later than it was suppose to and the actual ride to the Q27 is only about 10-12 minutes. A shame it can take damn near an hour just to go from North Conduit to Queens Village LIRR.

Please let them know. The transfer there sucks, the Q78 would have provided a continuous route for many route/trip combinations. Some just need to get from QV LIRR or Hempstead Ave to Merrick Blvd for the Q5, etc. 
 

 

On 8/18/2024 at 9:43 PM, Gotham Bus Co said:

 

Some folks genuinely believe that any/all change is bad — even if they would benefit (or at least not lose) from the change, they'll still oppose it if others would also benefit.

 

On 8/18/2024 at 10:26 PM, B35 via Church said:

You're trying too hard.

I don’t agree with that. The 2nd plan has been severely downgraded. Useful routes/changes chiseled away because of complaints. 

[Q43LTD]

On 8/18/2024 at 12:49 AM, Q43LTD said:

In the first draft, it ran between Bay Terrace and Rockaway Blvd. In the second draft, it was labeled the Q78. It was a route that basically served the entire length of Springfield Blvd. One of the few proposals that I liked.

Forgot to put that there

[B35 via Church]

6 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I don’t agree with that. The 2nd plan has been severely downgraded. Useful routes/changes chiseled away because of complaints. 

What are you disagreeing with exactly?

 

Edited August 26 by B35 via Church

[Robert Spire]

On 8/15/2024 at 2:28 PM, BrooklynBus said:

It’s actually both. 

The one nice thing about the private bus companies was that they were closer to the communities than the MTA is. Had the private bus companies survived, I doubt the redesign would be executed in this fashion. 

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, Robert Spire said:

The one nice thing about the private bus companies was that they were closer to the communities than the MTA is. Had the private bus companies survived, I doubt the redesign would be executed in this fashion. 

That's the main thing I miss about the PBL's.

[Q43LTD]

17 hours ago, Robert Spire said:

The one nice thing about the private bus companies was that they were closer to the communities than the MTA is. Had the private bus companies survived, I doubt the redesign would be executed in this fashion. 

There was a redesign for the PBL's about a few years before the takeover 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

17 hours ago, Robert Spire said:

The one nice thing about the private bus companies was that they were closer to the communities than the MTA is. Had the private bus companies survived, I doubt the redesign would be executed in this fashion. 

The PBLs were allowed to do almost anything they wanted because NYCDOT would just pay the bills and add a 6% markup. The more they spent, the more they profited.

[limitednyc]

What came from that study was. Woodhaven/crossbay redesign, gay brewer blvd/  fear rfar rovkerway and exspaned hawk service thur out the system.