Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Q43LTD]

On 6/14/2024 at 6:30 PM, xD4nn said:

I meant Q51. Got confused there.

I would say either Baisley or JFK. Nothings in stone just yet.

[Ex696]

12 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

I would say either Baisley or JFK. Nothings in stone just yet.

I know you said nothing’s set in stone yet, but what made you count out Jamaica? I thought it would be one of the options considering it’s replacing the Q4 Limited.

[EastFlatbushLarry]

15 hours ago, Ex696 said:

I know you said nothing’s set in stone yet, but what made you count out Jamaica? I thought it would be one of the options considering it’s replacing the Q4 Limited.

because it has yet to be determined if runs from NYCTA (specifically Jamaica Depot) are being reallocated to create the Q51 or runs from MTA Bus Company are... Be it Baisley Park Depot or any other yard. it's hella early to speculate on such things... including whether or not Baisley will close or be "absorbed".

For the most part, these "new" lines are not new runs. from my interpretation, it seems to be mostly a reallocation of currently provided services, so we really need to (pardon the repetitiveness) wait and see.

[checkmatechamp13]

Public hearing on the Queens Bus Redesign scheduled for July 24th: https://new.mta.info/transparency/public-hearings/2024-qbnr-hearing

[mikecintel]

5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Public hearing on the Queens Bus Redesign scheduled for July 24th: https://new.mta.info/transparency/public-hearings/2024-qbnr-hearing

Finally an online public hearing!.  I though they said there would be no public hearings?  Another lie the MTA!.  I am glad there is a final public hearing.  I hope that people do attend the hearing on July 24, 2024 for the final say.

[limitednyc]

It looks like every thing is the same from final draft.

[MysteriousBtrain]

48 minutes ago, limitednyc said:

It looks like every thing is the same from final draft.

Probably won't know for sure until the actual hearing, they probably want to make an official announcement with an official date by next month so they can say everything is concrete 

[Gotham Bus Co]

4 hours ago, mikecintel said:

Finally an online public hearing!.  I though they said there would be no public hearings?  Another lie the MTA!.  I am glad there is a final public hearing.  I hope that people do attend the hearing on July 24, 2024 for the final say.

 

How can it be online? For years, politicians have told us that public hearings must be in person for comments to count.

[mikecintel]

35 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co said:

 

How can it be online? For years, politicians have told us that public hearings must be in person for comments to count.

Yes it is because since the pandemic there is Zoom meetings so it will be online.  What I meant was they said for after the 1st meeting the MTA said there will not be a online meeting for the 2nd public hearing.

*Please select an event:

Queens Bus Network Redesign Public Hearing -- Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 5:00 PM -- In person: Queens Borough Hall | 120-55 Queens Blvd | Kew Gardens, NYQueens Bus Network Redesign Public Hearing -- Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 5:00 PM -- Online: Virtual Public Hearing | Zoom

Edited June 21 by mikecintel

[BrooklynBus]

The public hearing will be in person. Legally, it is the only outreach required after a ten day announcement about it posted on the buses. 
 

Here is the announcement:

“The MTA Public Comment Period for the Queens Bus Network Proposed Final Plan is now OPEN until July 26th!

Submit your comments now on the bus network redesign to ensure your voice is heard. My office has worked closely with the MTA to maintain the bus lines in District 19, but I need my constituents to speak directly to the MTA and make their concerns known. The formal comment period for the Proposed Final Plan will conclude Friday, July 26.

There will be a Public Hearing held on Wednesday, July 24th from 5pm to 8:30pm, at the Helen Marshall Cultural Center at Queens Borough Hall located at 120-55 Queens Blvd, Queens, NY 11424. The meeting will be held in the Atrium. All attendees must enter through the main entrance on Queens Blvd and pass through building security.

Members of the public who wish to speak at the hearing in person, remotely via Zoom, or telephone, are required to register in advance by:

Registering online: https://new.mta.info/2024-qbnr-hearing

Calling the Public Hearing Hotline: (646) 252-6777

In person: same-day registration will be available the day of the hearing. Registration begins at 5:00 p.m. and closes at 6:30pm.

Speakers will be provided two minutes to speak. I encourage everyone who is able to testify in person. Showing up in person speaks volumes to your dedication to your testimony. If you aren’t able to go in person, please testify via Zoom. It’s important for the MTA to see members of the community who will be affected by the bus network redesign, rather than just reading written testimony.

Comments may also be submitted online or via mail to: MTA Government & Community Relations, 2 Broadway, D16.94, New York, NY 10004.

All written statements must be submitted by 8:00pm on Friday, July 26. Comments received after that date and time will be reviewed, but will NOT be included in the official hearing record.”

 

This hearing must be postponed until at least January 2025 for the following reasons:

1. Many Queens residents are on vacation for the summer and/or are unable to attend this public hearing for other reasons.

2. None of the thousands of comments from the public received since the release of the Proposed Final Plan in December 2023 have been incorporated into a new plan.

3. The MTA has provided no evidence that its goals of “meeting customers” priorities of more reliable service, faster travel, better connections, and ease of use” have been met. Although improved interborough connectivity was one of the goals, no new routes are being offered (e.g. between Sheepshead Bay, Astoria, Bayside and the Rockaways). Furthermore, under the latest plan, one of currently three Queens routes that serve Manhattan (the Q101) will no longer do so. Also, there has been a lack of coordination with Nassau Inter County Express bus routes.

4. The plan does not properly address communities in transit deserts (areas that lack adequate access to public transit). Many of these areas, including parts of Southeast and Northeast Queens, have historically been underserved and will continue to be. Some of them will even see reductions in bus service and coverage.

5. The plan does not accommodate the influx of riders into the transit system that congestion pricing is guaranteed to have, if implemented. 

6. The plan ignores the fact that there are shortages of both buses and bus drivers. This means that many bus runs will not be filled if bus drivers call in sick, compromising service.

7. The MTA has not announced where additional free transfers will be provided due to route revisions. When the Bronx Bus Redesign was implemented, many riders continued to pay double fares and complained that additional transfers were needed. Furthermore, the additional transfers that were provided were never publicized meaning that future residents will not be aware of them and may use other routes unnecessarily requiring double fares.

8. The MTA has ignored the nearly 3,300 passengers who have signed a petition against the elimination of over 1,400 bus stops (a third of the stops in the whole borough). In cases where bus stops were returned, other stops were taken away. Bus stop spacing will increase from an average of 818 feet apart to an average of 1,151 feet apart, increasing walk distances for some to ¾ mile to the closest bus route. The MTA’s 2010 guidelines call for a bus stop every 750 feet, which is already exceeded in Queens. Instead, the MTA has chosen to follow European standards instead of the domestic standard or the MTA’s 2010 guidelines. This is being done only to save operating costs, not to help bus passengers. It will also disproportionately harm seniors and people with disabilities who are unable to or have difficulty walking farther to catch the bus (more on that in reason #10).

9. Despite promises to do so, the MTA has refused to publicize the existing and proposed revenue miles and hours to prove that the plan is an overall service addition instead of a reduction. The MTA has stated that the Proposed Final Plan will cost $30 million more to operate. However, those funds do not necessarily mean additional passenger service, but rather could mean more inefficient service with more buses running “Not in Service.”

10. Despite the MTA’s claims that the plan will result in “greater transit equity,” as MTA Chair and CEO Janno Lieber said when the Proposed Final Plan was released, equity was not properly incorporated. The MTA did not use adequate quantitative or qualitative data to determine changes to bus routes, bus stops, etc., nor were any studies conducted to determine how disadvantaged and vulnerable populations (not only lower income residents/people of color, but also seniors and people with disabilities) would be affected by these changes. Furthermore, a proper equity analysis was never done for the Queens Bus Network Redesign, nor were any metrics to evaluate equity established at all.

11. No quantitative data were provided regarding ridership on a stop-by-stop, route segment-by-route segment, or even full route-by-full route basis, to back up the MTA’s decisions for the plan. The MTA included some of this data for the Bus Network Redesigns in the Bronx and Brooklyn, publishing statistics for all of its routes regarding ridership per revenue hour, ridership per revenue mile, farebox recovery ratio, speed, etc. However, for the Queens plan, only data for route corridors were provided, which provide a very limited understanding. The MTA typically provides detailed statistics for routine service changes regarding cost, the number of riders who have to make an extra transfer, walk further to a new route (or conversely, riders who have fewer transfers, shorter walks, etc). However, these statistics on a proposal-by-proposal basis were not presented as part of the Queens Bus Network Redesign process.

12. Public outreach for the plan has been insufficient. Only in recent months have the digital displays linked a website for further information, and no printed materials were posted on the buses. Attendance at meetings, open houses and pop-up events were very low, reaching under 1% of Queens 500,000 weekday bus riders. Also, the booklet for the plan was not provided at senior centers and hospitals, excluding those without access to computers and mobile devices from the process. In the Southeast Queens route profiles, the bus stop eliminations were not provided to the elected officials in the presentation given to them.

The MTA must not be given a blank check to make whatever changes it desires. Rushing the Queens Bus Network Redesign without properly incorporating public input nor performing due diligence would be catastrophic for the riding public, and we must not let that happen.

Easily find and contact your elected officials by going to this link. https://www.passengersunited.org/qbnr.html 

[Gotham Bus Co]

On 7/11/2024 at 12:09 PM, BrooklynBus said:

7. The MTA has not announced where additional free transfers will be provided due to route revisions. When the Bronx Bus Redesign was implemented, many riders continued to pay double fares and complained that additional transfers were needed. Furthermore, the additional transfers that were provided were never publicized meaning that future residents will not be aware of them and may use other routes unnecessarily requiring double fares.

 

My own preference has long been to replace all transfer privileges with a time-based fare cap — a single fare might cover 2 or 3 hours, or it could be variable by time of day or day of week (e.g. 2 hours during the day, 3-4 hours overnight or on weekends with service disruptions) — specifically to avoid unnecessary double fares.

[BrooklynBus]

On 7/16/2024 at 7:03 AM, Gotham Bus Co said:

 

My own preference has long been to replace all transfer privileges with a time-based fare cap — a single fare might cover 2 or 3 hours, or it could be variable by time of day or day of week (e.g. 2 hours during the day, 3-4 hours overnight or on weekends with service disruptions) — specifically to avoid unnecessary double fares.

I have been saying the same thing since 2017 and have wrote about it numerous times. The MTA opposes it because they are afraid people would make round trips for one fare as if no one already does that. It is very possible to do that in Manhattan for short trips by going one way by subway and the other way by bus.

I believe most would still continue to pay two fares because their trips take longer than two hours and what revenue would be lost would be replaced by new trips being made. The MTA and TA before them didn’t provide bus subway transfers for the same reason — fear that too much revenue would be lost. Before that you couldn’t transfer between all buses for free for over 60 years for the same reason. The BMT, the BOT, and the TA all believed too much revenue would be lost. Every time they were wrong and change came 50 years too late. When will they learn? 
 

https://www.qchron.com/editions/queenswide/transit-activist-plans-to-rally-at-boro-hall/article_8586dc77-9af9-5d99-926a-b3e9c578b2e6.html 

 

https://www.qchron.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/delay-bad-bus-plan/article_013237b0-449b-11ef-9c0e-836fa8bf066f.html 

[Q43LTD]

Having both the Q10 and 37 to JFK is kinda like having both the 3 and 77 serve JFK

[Cait Sith]

1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

Having both the Q10 and 37 to JFK is kinda like having both the 3 and 77 serve JFK

I still say it should've been the Q9 over the Q37.

[B35 via Church]

6 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

I still say it should've been the Q9 over the Q37.

Should go without saying.

7 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Having both the Q10 and 37 to JFK is kinda like having both the 3 and 77 serve JFK

FWIW, there's a stark difference between how the MTA made the pre-2008 Q21 more useful, and.... well, the spaghetti mess they have proposed for the (southern portion of the) Q37....  The irony is, I see that proposed Q37 being counter-productive to/from JFK....

[Q43LTD]

On 7/19/2024 at 9:26 PM, B35 via Church said:

Should go without saying.

FWIW, there's a stark difference between how the MTA made the pre-2008 Q21 more useful, and.... well, the spaghetti mess they have proposed for the (southern portion of the) Q37....  The irony is, I see that proposed Q37 being counter-productive to/from JFK....

You know, the Q11 from the GBL days kinda reminds me of the Q111 of the JBL days

[BrooklynBus]

Now we have proof that it makes no sense to increase bus stop spacing from an average of every 852 to every 1295 feet. An analysis by engineer Stephen Bauman shows that on a typical Wednesday, bus speeds will increase from 8.63 to 8.77 mph, but on Saturdays will decrease from 9.29 to 9.25 mph and from 9.74 to 9.73 mph on Sundays while the distance between stops on Saturdays will increase from an average of 838 to 1397 feet and on Sundays from an average of every 840 feet to every 1312 feet on Sundays.

Conclusion— There will be no meaningful change in bus speeds on weekends or weekdays, while the inconvenience to bus passengers will be massive which is what I have been saying all along. The Queens Bus Redesign must not allowed to be continued until this is remedied by leaving 95% of bus stops where they are now. Trips must not take longer after the redesign than they took before the redesign which would be the case if one third of Queens bus stops are removed. 

I just submitted this comment to the MTA.

[NewFlyer 230]

On 7/26/2024 at 9:34 AM, BrooklynBus said:

Now we have proof that it makes no sense to increase bus stop spacing from an average of every 852 to every 1295 feet. An analysis by engineer Stephen Bauman shows that on a typical Wednesday, bus speeds will increase from 8.63 to 8.77 mph, but on Saturdays will decrease from 9.29 to 9.25 mph and from 9.74 to 9.73 mph on Sundays while the distance between stops on Saturdays will increase from an average of 838 to 1397 feet and on Sundays from an average of every 840 feet to every 1312 feet on Sundays.

Conclusion— There will be no meaningful change in bus speeds on weekends or weekdays, while the inconvenience to bus passengers will be massive which is what I have been saying all along. The Queens Bus Redesign must not allowed to be continued until this is remedied by leaving 95% of bus stops where they are now. Trips must not take longer after the redesign than they took before the redesign which would be the case if one third of Queens bus stops are removed. 

I just submitted this comment to the MTA.

The thing with this redesign is that they are just reallocating resources when I would argue more funding and resources have to be put into the redesign to make it more effective. I believe that there should be some stop removals but with the way they are cutting stops on many routes, they are definitely bound to deter many from wanting to use the bus system. Perhaps maybe that is their goal especially with the citibike expansion and the e scooters but those alternatives modes are more expensive. 

My route the Q25 in the redesign would run by itself from College Point to Jamaica LIRR with a lot of stops being removed. The Q25 as it is now is  unreliable and often suffers from delays even with bus lanes being put up in Jamaica and Flushing. The removed stops would speed things up sure but it forces many more people to walk further. The Q34 is completely eliminated.

I would propose the Q25 run local between College Point to Roosevelt Ave with a slightly modified route in College Point but south of Roosevelt Ave I would have it run Limited all day to Jamaica LIRR. I would have the Q34 run local only between Main Street/Roosevelt Ave and Jamaica Center. The northern part of the Q34 can stay as the Q61 as they have in the redesign. 

Sutphin Blvd between Jamaica Ave and 94th Ave by the LIRR is prone to bad delays yet nothing seems to be proposed to help speed up bus traffic along that little stretch. Every route that has to pass through Sutphin Blvd in that area gets delayed. Sometimes it is so bad that many Q20/Q44 drivers turn onto Jamaica Ave and take that street all the way to Merrick Blvd to complete its route so they are not stuck for several minutes trying to make that left turn from Sutphin Blvd to Archer. Yet in the redesign plan the Q44 still has to make that turn which delays that already long route.

[B35 via Church]

On 7/21/2024 at 8:48 PM, Q43LTD said:

You know, the Q11 from the GBL days kinda reminds me of the Q111 of the JBL days

How so?

On 7/26/2024 at 9:34 AM, BrooklynBus said:

Now we have proof that it makes no sense to increase bus stop spacing from an average of every 852 to every 1295 feet. An analysis by engineer Stephen Bauman shows that on a typical Wednesday, bus speeds will increase from 8.63 to 8.77 mph, but on Saturdays will decrease from 9.29 to 9.25 mph and from 9.74 to 9.73 mph on Sundays while the distance between stops on Saturdays will increase from an average of 838 to 1397 feet and on Sundays from an average of every 840 feet to every 1312 feet on Sundays.

Conclusion— There will be no meaningful change in bus speeds on weekends or weekdays, while the inconvenience to bus passengers will be massive which is what I have been saying all along. The Queens Bus Redesign must not allowed to be continued until this is remedied by leaving 95% of bus stops where they are now. Trips must not take longer after the redesign than they took before the redesign which would be the case if one third of Queens bus stops are removed. 

I just submitted this comment to the MTA.

You'd think anyone that truly knows this city would have been came to that conclusion.... From jump, I never put stock in any improving of bus speeds that would noticeably affect commuters.... It's nothing more than a talking point.

20 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

The thing with this redesign is that they are just reallocating resources when I would argue more funding and resources have to be put into the redesign to make it more effective. I believe that there should be some stop removals but with the way they are cutting stops on many routes, they are definitely bound to deter many from wanting to use the bus system. Perhaps maybe that is their goal especially with the citibike expansion and the e scooters but those alternatives modes are more expensive.

This runs under the assumption that they actually want to improve the network.... They don't want to make anything more effective.

The people out here using bikes/e-bikes & e-scooters en masse as a means of commuting & what not, I'd argue aren't the people that bothered considering relying on, or even utilizing buses to begin with - regardless of any improvement to bus frequencies, speeds, OTP, or the merit of the routes themselves.... I'd say more of these people are more aligned with using them as a means of thwarting the subway...

[Q43LTD]

On 7/28/2024 at 9:18 AM, B35 via Church said:

How so?

All those short turns they had

[BrooklynBus]

https://www.qchron.com/editions/queenswide/redo-bus-redesign-plan/article_7ef0c0fa-55b6-11ef-ba80-73a9733b8933.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawEiFG5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHRJL1shz0hV2JTt11QRmUnA13whV_EOJhwxSFS2t8J0KC-FWuOLn_YLWyw_aem_i7PHtqKCol0WkqDGYRA2tQ

[LGA Link N Train]

Its been a while since I kept up with the Queens Bus Redesign, but as far as I remember from the Final Draft Plan. All its done is minor tweaks to bus routes while eliminating a bunch of Stops. To me that defeats the purpose of having a Bus Network Redesign in the first place.

[TheNextGen2009]

I realized that I asked this question in the Random Thoughts thread knowing it wasn't the right place to ask there.

 

One thing that's got me thinking is that, judging that the MTA is going forward with the Local, Limited, and Rush stuff, how are they going to tell the routes apart? Are bus stops going to color code the routes? Maybe have the destination signs change color to that appropriate service (which I know is pretty much not possible)? I really do wonder how this is all going to fare with passengers once this thing is implemented.

[JoshTheScrub]

11 minutes ago, TheNextGen2009 said:

I realized that I asked this question in the Random Thoughts thread knowing it wasn't the right place to ask there.

 

One thing that's got me thinking is that, judging that the MTA is going forward with the Local, Limited, and Rush stuff, how are they going to tell the routes apart? Are bus stops going to color code the routes? Maybe have the destination signs change color to that appropriate service (which I know is pretty much not possible)? I really do wonder how this is all going to fare with passengers once this thing is implemented.

I’m assuming bus stops are gonna change the existing color code, but bus destination signs most likely would just add “RUSH” to the sign change like how it displays “LIMITED” on the current dest signs 

[m7zanr160s]

On 8/11/2024 at 7:11 AM, LGA Link N Train said:

Its been a while since I kept up with the Queens Bus Redesign, but as far as I remember from the Final Draft Plan. All its done is minor tweaks to bus routes while eliminating a bunch of Stops. To me that defeats the purpose of having a Bus Network Redesign in the first place.

Yes, it had to be majorly scaled back because people don't like change. It could have been revolutionary, but people... But if things stay the same, then someone's gonna complain about how things need to improve. You can't win.