Why such gaps in the 'Nereid ave" 5s PM northbound?

[Juelz4309]

I was at 125 st earlier tonite jus after 8 pm..headed to 225/WPR and to my surprise a nereid 5 popped up on the arrival board! Mind you the last "scheduled" 238 5 is supposed to depart 125 around 640pm...

 

This isnt the first time this has happened eitha...Ive caught many "late" 238 5s...they tend to run express all the way to Gun Hill to my delight lol...I have the live time app so I knw when theres service disruptions along the 2.3.4 or 5 since they all have a domino effect on each other...9 times outta 10 all is normal...

 

I notice they tend to "bunch" them together with 3 "neried" 5s back to back then a 25-30 minute gap...Why cant they jus rum em as scheduled as they do southbound in the AM?...

 

It seems in the afternoon they jus run em to get them back to yard without any real regard to the actual published schedule...Leading to 5s arriving as late as 815 as it did tonight...The schedule has "12" trains that run up to 238 spread between 430-630PM

[Calvin]

Usually, the late Nereid Av trains are there OOS after reaching to 238 St on the line. 

 

During the PM's, they do bunch up since the share the same track as the from Franklin Av up to 125 St. Train traffic is also the key. 

Back to back trains to Nereid Av might be one from Utica Av and Flatbush Av waiting to see which one goes first. 

 

*Also, the short-turn to Gun Hill Rd, White Plains Rd, the also has trains OOS at 241 St heading to the yard to avoid congestion from one another. 

 

*The is usually scrambled during the PM rush

[checkmatechamp13]

On a busy line like Lexington Avenue, the emphasis is on maintaining even spacing between trains, rather than focusing on the schedule. Unfortunately, for relatively infrequent lines like the Dyre , it can sometimes lead to large gaps. I remember once, I got off a Nereid at East 180th, and the next train was 24 minutes away.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

On a busy line like Lexington Avenue, the emphasis is on maintaining even spacing between trains, rather than focusing on the schedule. Unfortunately, for relatively infrequent lines like the Dyre , it can sometimes lead to large gaps. I remember once, I got off a Nereid at East 180th, and the next train was 24 minutes away.

Don't those go hand in hand given that the schedule is what dictates that spacing to begin with? If the schedule is not being followed then you're not going to get even spacing. Even spacing implies that the combined headway of the service is maintained in addition to the headways of the individual lines. When you have 24 minute gaps during a time of day where no line has a headway even remotely as high that's not a problem beyond ignoring the schedule in favor of spacing. How many trains can you realistically jump ahead of a Dyre yet have that argument hold water? 

 

As far as the Dyre is concerned what I find odd is not that the service is always infrequent. In fact it does quite well during Midday and PM reverse peak. What I've always had a problem with is the AM Rush Southbound and the PM Rush Northbound. My home stop on the line (Gun Hill Road) gets 142 trips of Southbound service and 140 trips of Northbound service over the course of a weekday based on the current schedule. That's not bad but when you consider that between 6:30 and 8:30 am there's only 14 trips scheduled Southbound and 2 of those trips are scheduled 6 minutes behind it's predecessor, you have a situation where most of the scheduled gaps are at least 10 minutes wide. For rush hour service that's pretty crappy. During Midday hours the headways are 8 minutes (which from experience have been fairly reliable) and between 3-5 pm most of the gaps are 7 minutes or less. During the hours I mentioned where the service is good, demand is low and trains can have seats available in most cars well into Manhattan. I will admit those rides are sweet. But during the AM Rush seats aren't there at Gun Hill Road (barely 5 minutes into the trip) and crowds don't drop below SRO until Lower Manhattan. The Dyre is infrequent during times when the service could be frequent and frequent during times said frequent service is a little excessive (even by my frequency loving standards). The PM Rush Northbound also have some scheduled gaps to Dyre wider than the midday headways which gets exacerbated by the reliability (or lack there of) of service on Lex itself. If the MTA fixes the peak-direction rush situation with the then the Northeast Bronx is set as far as subway service goes. But given the MTA, they'll think there's nothing worth fixing.

[bstar1]

Especially when is always more frequent service just get in the way of other subway lines & maybe .

[Trainmaster5]

Don't those go hand in hand given that the schedule is what dictates that spacing to begin with? If the schedule is not being followed then you're not going to get even spacing. Even spacing implies that the combined headway of the service is maintained in addition to the headways of the individual lines. When you have 24 minute gaps during a time of day where no line has a headway even remotely as high that's not a problem beyond ignoring the schedule in favor of spacing. How many trains can you realistically jump ahead of a Dyre yet have that argument hold water? 

 

As far as the Dyre is concerned what I find odd is not that the service is always infrequent. In fact it does quite well during Midday and PM reverse peak. What I've always had a problem with is the AM Rush Southbound and the PM Rush Northbound. My home stop on the line (Gun Hill Road) gets 142 trips of Southbound service and 140 trips of Northbound service over the course of a weekday based on the current schedule. That's not bad but when you consider that between 6:30 and 8:30 am there's only 14 trips scheduled Southbound and 2 of those trips are scheduled 6 minutes behind it's predecessor, you have a situation where most of the scheduled gaps are at least 10 minutes wide. For rush hour service that's pretty crappy. During Midday hours the headways are 8 minutes (which from experience have been fairly reliable) and between 3-5 pm most of the gaps are 7 minutes or less. During the hours I mentioned where the service is good, demand is low and trains can have seats available in most cars well into Manhattan. I will admit those rides are sweet. But during the AM Rush seats aren't there at Gun Hill Road (barely 5 minutes into the trip) and crowds don't drop below SRO until Lower Manhattan. The Dyre is infrequent during times when the service could be frequent and frequent during times said frequent service is a little excessive (even by my frequency loving standards). The PM Rush Northbound also have some scheduled gaps to Dyre wider than the midday headways which gets exacerbated by the reliability (or lack there of) of service on Lex itself. If the MTA fixes the peak-direction rush situation with the then the Northeast Bronx is set as far as subway service goes. But given the MTA, they'll think there's nothing worth fixing.

You mentioned the scheduled am trips between 6:30 and 8:30 and you are correct but look at the full s/b schedule for that time frame. See those s/b trains running on the WPR line. Those represent the n/b Nereid trains the OP was complaining about. They must run as scheduled in the am rush to establish line service for the remainder of the day. In the pm rush the opposite is true where the Dyre-bound trains are more important for crew scheduling purposes. During that time frame the Nereid-bound trains are/were mainly staffed by finishing crews, including some crews from the am tour. That's why supervision on the southern end will scramble the schedule to make sure the Dyre-bound service has priority because those crews may have more trips to make that day. I made this post to try to answer your questions as well as those of the original poster. Hope this helps some. Carry on.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You mentioned the scheduled am trips between 6:30 and 8:30 and you are correct but look at the full s/b schedule for that time frame. See those s/b trains running on the WPR line. Those represent the n/b Nereid trains the OP was complaining about. They must run as scheduled in the am rush to establish line service for the remainder of the day. In the pm rush the opposite is true where the Dyre-bound trains are more important for crew scheduling purposes. During that time frame the Nereid-bound trains are/were mainly staffed by finishing crews, including some crews from the am tour. That's why supervision on the southern end will scramble the schedule to make sure the Dyre-bound service has priority because those crews may have more trips to make that day. I made this post to try to answer your questions as well as those of the original poster. Hope this helps some. Carry on.

So essentially what you have happening more and more is less emphasis on trains and buses adhering to schedules... No wonder service overall continues to deteriorate.  I honestly don't even know what subways have schedules for because they rarely adhere to them under any circumstance.  

[Trainmaster5]

So essentially what you have happening more and more is less emphasis on trains and buses adhering to schedules... No wonder service overall continues to deteriorate.  I honestly don't even know what subways have schedules for because they rarely adhere to them under any circumstance.  

Your sarcasm has been noted. In my experience the entire IRT schedule, as written, may be followed exactly once every 30 days or so. The more serious the delay the greater the chance the schedule will not return to normal that day. I can't speak for the IND or BMT lines but I'd guess that holds true for them too. I'll leave the surface observations to you and the other posters who use the buses. I'm sure all bus, subway, and railroad users are aware of that disclaimer on every schedule. Words to the effect that, unlike the Ten Commandments, the schedule is not written in stone. That's without mentioning the Federal rules about the amount of hours  bus, subway and railroad workers are allowed to operate daily. Carry on.

[Daniel The Cool]

Your sarcasm has been noted. In my experience the entire IRT schedule, as written, may be followed exactly once every 30 days or so. The more serious the delay the greater the chance the schedule will not return to normal that day. I can't speak for the IND or BMT lines but I'd guess that holds true for them too. I'll leave the surface observations to you and the other posters who use the buses. I'm sure all bus, subway, and railroad users are aware of that disclaimer on every schedule. Words to the effect that, unlike the Ten Commandments, the schedule is not written in stone. That's without mentioning the Federal rules about the amount of hours  bus, subway and railroad workers are allowed to operate daily. Carry on.

 

I believe the B Division does the same thing. Those Trains that drops out of 168th Street and/or Dyckman Street during the AM Rush Hours are finishing crews who works the overnight jobs. Same with those 2 Trains that ends at Bedford during the AM Rush Hours as well.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Your sarcasm has been noted. In my experience the entire IRT schedule, as written, may be followed exactly once every 30 days or so. The more serious the delay the greater the chance the schedule will not return to normal that day. I can't speak for the IND or BMT lines but I'd guess that holds true for them too. I'll leave the surface observations to you and the other posters who use the buses. I'm sure all bus, subway, and railroad users are aware of that disclaimer on every schedule. Words to the effect that, unlike the Ten Commandments, the schedule is not written in stone. That's without mentioning the Federal rules about the amount of hours  bus, subway and railroad workers are allowed to operate daily. Carry on.

Once every 30 days? That's incredible and quite funny too.  I think it's crazy that they clearly know that these delays will happen and yet put out a schedule that won't reflect any of them.  That's just irresponsible on so many levels.  The delays aren't exactly just a few minutes either. I mean sure people should give themselves extra time, but the few times that I actually have taken the subways during the rush the travel time on the express has been absolutely abysmal.  I remember a few years back they were encouraging people to take the since the express was as slow if not slower.  

[Trainmaster5]

Once every 30 days? That's incredible and quite funny too.  I think it's crazy that they clearly know that these delays will happen and yet put out a schedule that won't reflect any of them.  That's just irresponsible on so many levels.  The delays aren't exactly just a few minutes either. I mean sure people should give themselves extra time, but the few times that I actually have taken the subways during the rush the travel time on the express has been absolutely abysmal.  I remember a few years back they were encouraging people to take the since the express was as slow if not slower.  

That's the anecdotal information that was relayed to me by a person who sat in daily at meetings at the old Command Center at 370 Jay Street for years. You must take into account that in my world a delay may be something as simple as a door malfunction all the way up to a passenger fatality or a derailment. A delay can last for a minute or a few hours and may affect train service in other boroughs or other divisions. It may even encompass other divisions of the . Take a delay at Queensboro Plaza which takes in the , , and lines. Move eastward on the and a LIRR problem at Woodside or Flushing impacts the subway. Same for the MNRR at Marble Hill, Woodlawn or Wakefield, or and service at LIRR Jamaica. You've been around. I'm sure you realize that the schedule is an optimized guideline reflecting minimal delay at best. When I became a C/R I was taught that a train wasn't considered late unless it was more than 5 minutes late at a terminal. That was against everything I was taught growing up. I stood up in schoolcar and made a statement about being on death row with an execution time of midnight. I pointed out that if the governor's reprieve or pardon came through at 12:01 I was already a dead man. My instructor pointed out that if the TA or a railroad were in charge of the switch I'd still be alive. What I pointed out about subway schedules is that they reflect optimal circumstances. They can't take into account the unexpected. I know for a fact that IRT schedules had some built- in slack incorporated on weekdays. A train leaving a terminal at 3 pm might have the same running time as a train leaving exactly an hour earlier but the later train was picking up just dismissed high school students going home while the 2 pm train avoided that altogether. I've been involved, directly or indirectly, with signal problems (AC power outages), sick customers, shots fired, suicides, childbirth, track fires, train fires, EDPs, smokers, aggressive panhandlers, and a massive blackout. Delays ranging from a minute or two to a twenty hour delay where I was personally on the train. Since these delays are unusual and can't be plotted out in advance you can't create a schedule for them. I do know that the schedule gives more time for a rush hour trip from end to end than a non-rush hour trip. Those things can be scheduled for. The unexpected can't be. I fly between NY and NC a few times a month. American and Southwest have schedules, too but like the schedules they have that same disclaimer and aren't written in stone. Nothing is perfect in this world. Don't let it stress you. Carry on.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That's the anecdotal information that was relayed to me by a person who sat in daily at meetings at the old Command Center at 370 Jay Street for years. You must take into account that in my world a delay may be something as simple as a door malfunction all the way up to a passenger fatality or a derailment. A delay can last for a minute or a few hours and may affect train service in other boroughs or other divisions. It may even encompass other divisions of the . Take a delay at Queensboro Plaza which takes in the , , and lines. Move eastward on the and a LIRR problem at Woodside or Flushing impacts the subway. Same for the MNRR at Marble Hill, Woodlawn or Wakefield, or and service at LIRR Jamaica. You've been around. I'm sure you realize that the schedule is an optimized guideline reflecting minimal delay at best. When I became a C/R I was taught that a train wasn't considered late unless it was more than 5 minutes late at a terminal. That was against everything I was taught growing up. I stood up in schoolcar and made a statement about being on death row with an execution time of midnight. I pointed out that if the governor's reprieve or pardon came through at 12:01 I was already a dead man. My instructor pointed out that if the TA or a railroad were in charge of the switch I'd still be alive. What I pointed out about subway schedules is that they reflect optimal circumstances. They can't take into account the unexpected. I know for a fact that IRT schedules had some built- in slack incorporated on weekdays. A train leaving a terminal at 3 pm might have the same running time as a train leaving exactly an hour earlier but the later train was picking up just dismissed high school students going home while the 2 pm train avoided that altogether. I've been involved, directly or indirectly, with signal problems (AC power outages), sick customers, shots fired, suicides, childbirth, track fires, train fires, EDPs, smokers, aggressive panhandlers, and a massive blackout. Delays ranging from a minute or two to a twenty hour delay where I was personally on the train. Since these delays are unusual and can't be plotted out in advance you can't create a schedule for them. I do know that the schedule gives more time for a rush hour trip from end to end than a non-rush hour trip. Those things can be scheduled for. The unexpected can't be. I fly between NY and NC a few times a month. American and Southwest have schedules, too but like the schedules they have that same disclaimer and aren't written in stone. Nothing is perfect in this world. Don't let it stress you. Carry on.

The unexpected is understandable. It's the delays that they know about that's crazy.  And no it won't stress me.  That's why I avoid the subway. lol