Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Kamen Rider]

No, Woodhaven was the one *I* was referring to. Maybe you should look it up some time, let me give you a hand:

http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/woodhaven.html

 

But guess I was wrong because I didn't know that wasn't the same Woodhaven as on the subway.

 

@realizm: With the CTZ package deal it isn't gonna cost you $7.50

The LIRR Woodhaven station is about 4 miles away, in the actual neighborhood of Woodhaven. The closedt subway stations are Woodhaven Blvd on the J and Rockaway blvd on the A (where woodhaven becomes Cross Bay). The street used to be called Trotting Course Lane, a name an orphaned section of the original route still carries. the street never had an LIRR mainline station where the two cross, but there were stations in ether side of it, Grand Ave and Rego Park. But these both were only for Rockaway Beach Branch trains on the original outside tracks when the ROW was 6 tracks wide. Forest Hills was always the next stop for mainline trains leaving Woodside running local.

[Vistausss]

The LIRR Woodhaven station is about 4 miles away, in the actual neighborhood of Woodhaven.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying. So I was kinda right although it may not get as much passengers from the QBL when re-opened as I thought given that it's 4 miles away. But still, it could be a nice addition for the neighbourhood. It was open until 1976. The station is preserved well and only requires some cleaning work.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Vistausss

[realizm]

That was the severe cutback they were looking into. so the could run to 21st St. all times, and they were going to eliminate Concourse express service. It was modeled off of the asbestos flood service in '89 where the orange Q picked up the 207th St. branch.

 

That's what I was stumped on. Why the MTA was making tentative decisions like that? The moar you know....

Edited July 22, 2013 by realizm

[bobtehpanda]

Thanks for clarifying. So I was kinda right although it may not get as much passengers from the QBL when re-opened as I thought given that it's 4 miles away. But still, it could be a nice addition for the neighbourhood. It was open until 1976. The station is preserved well and only requires some cleaning work.

 

That station is located on the Atlantic Branch, which doesn't run anywhere near Queens Blvd. Woodhaven Junction is the former intersection between the Atlantic Branch and the defunct Rockaway Beach Branch, which no longer exists.

 

Honestly, building a Rego Park/Woodhaven Blvd station on the existing Main Line wouldn't be so bad, but it would almost certainly get s***y service.

[realizm]

Well the LIRR mainly provides today Manhattan-Centric service for LIRR customers from, well, Long island, so it's not strange that these sections of the LIRR mainline will be underserved with the QBL nearby, pretty much. Not to mention that a high percentage of LI residents are motorists who scream down the Grand Central Parkway and the LIE to commute into Manhattan to begin with.

[Vistausss]

That station is located on the Atlantic Branch, which doesn't run anywhere near Queens Blvd.

 

No, but the station still exists in good shape and it's located in the neighbourhood. Plus the Atlantic Branch has quite good service so re-opening that station could help. It's only a matter of re-opening, it now just speeds by it on its way to Atlantic Term.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Vistausss

[bobtehpanda]

No, but the station still exists in good shape and it's located in the neighbourhood. Plus the Atlantic Branch has quite good service so re-opening that station could help. It's only a matter of re-opening, it now just speeds by it on its way to Atlantic Term.

 

Woodhaven Blvd station on the QBL is located in Rego Park. Woodhaven station on the Atlantic Branch is in Woodhaven. They are two distinct neighborhoods (and quite frankly, are quite far from each other - not only are they four miles apart, but these four miles are very pedestrian unfriendly, and there's a giant string of parks and cemeteries that separates the two.) The only reason they share a name is because there's a giant eight or ten lane road that connects the both of them.

Edited July 23, 2013 by bobtehpanda

[RollOver]

Now that i think about it, that was exactly one of the major reasons that the MTA is indeed very interested in carrying out CBTC work out on Queens Blvd. -- the 53rd street viaduct. This was one of the very reasons the 63rd street line was built, aside from BMT access to the SAS or as a bypass not just of the QBL to the proposed lines extending beyond the reaches of the Archer Ave line's current terminus (The reason the stations were designed that way in such it was to be extended into the LIRR branches and not have Jamaica Center serve as a terminus),

 

... but to bypass the congested 53rd street corridor, which historically may be forced to handle 30TPH in change or more originally when the and lines both accessed the tunnel to their respective IND trunk lines, pre 63rd St connector. The fact that 53rd/Lex is a major hub to the IRT Lex for access to critical areas of Manhattan from Queens such as Midtown Manhattan, GCT, PABT and Penn Station.

 

Of course things changed and the MTA civil engineers and capital construction planners went for the direct 63rd St line to IND QBL connection, which did not help much in terms of the ongoing overcrowding issues. CBTC will do wonders on the 53rd Street corridor.

 

I'm sorry to reply to an old post realizm but I had this in my mind for quite sometime recently...

 

I think there should really be a 63rd Street station on the IND Second Avenue Line via a free transfer/passage way/connection to the Lexington Avenue-63rd Street station.

 

Of course, years or decades later is when the to/from 125th Street-2nd Avenue via the IND 2nd Avenue/BMT 63rd Street lines and the entire route will exist. Hillside Avenue/Queens Boulevard riders who really want service to the Upper East Side can change from the  to the at Lexington Avenue-63rd Street as we all know or the if they want service to the downtown (southbound) side to the East Side.

 

If so, I think this can relieve crowding congestion on the Lexington Avenue-53rd Street and 5th Avenue-53rd Street stations just like how the IND Second Avenue Line will relieve the IRT Lexington Avenue Line.

 

If something like this is possible, then I would be quick to agree. But of course, it may not be realistic nor helpful either.

Edited July 23, 2013 by RollOverMyHead

[CenSin]

I'm sorry to reply to an old post realizm but I had this in my mind for quite sometime recently...

 

I think there should really be a 63rd Street station on the IND Second Avenue Line via a free transfer/passage way/connection to the Lexington Avenue-63rd Street station.

 

Of course, years or decades later is when the to/from 125th Street-2nd Avenue via the IND 2nd Avenue/BMT 63rd Street lines and the entire route will exist. Hillside Avenue/Queens Boulevard riders who really want service to the Upper East Side can change from the  to the at Lexington Avenue-63rd Street as we all know or the if they want service to the downtown (southbound) side to the East Side.

 

If so, I think this can relieve crowding congestion on the Lexington Avenue-53rd Street and 5th Avenue-53rd Street stations just like how the IND Second Avenue Line will relieve the IRT Lexington Avenue Line.

 

If something like this is possible, then I would be quick to agree. But of course, it may not be realistic nor helpful either.

The will not have a stop at 63 Street (nor do I have any faith that it is easy to accomplish). Where would the station crossing Lexington Avenue connect to?

[VIP]

What are those black screens along the tracks of the QBL? You see it at Roosevelt Av as well

[realizm]

I'm sorry to reply to an old post realizm but I had this in my mind for quite sometime recently...

 

I think there should really be a 63rd Street station on the IND Second Avenue Line via a free transfer/passage way/connection to the Lexington Avenue-63rd Street station.

 

Of course, years or decades later is when the to/from 125th Street-2nd Avenue via the IND 2nd Avenue/BMT 63rd Street lines and the entire route will exist. Hillside Avenue/Queens Boulevard riders who really want service to the Upper East Side can change from the  to the at Lexington Avenue-63rd Street as we all know or the if they want service to the downtown (southbound) side to the East Side.

 

If so, I think this can relieve crowding congestion on the Lexington Avenue-53rd Street and 5th Avenue-53rd Street stations just like how the IND Second Avenue Line will relieve the IRT Lexington Avenue Line.

 

If something like this is possible, then I would be quick to agree. But of course, it may not be realistic nor helpful either.

 

Well the original 63rd Street tube's construction on the upper level has an over-engineering feature, a southbound spur, to connect any trains from the Queens Bvld Line approaching Manhattan to turn south towards 55th Street. The spur if you wish to railfan it, its right after 63rd Lex if going Queens Bound, -before- 63rd/Lex if Manhattan Bound on the , viewable from the side picture windows and is viewable from the T/O car, front cab window on any R160.

 

See diagram:

 

link: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-52DQxvPsnDY/UIg3Jrvb3wI/AAAAAAAAHMw/mV4UJHtBkFs/s1600/Lex63+diagram.gif

 

See it? Two spurs that actually exist one up the SAS, one down the SAS. That you can actually if you railfan window will notice. Youtube railfan window videos of the will also confirm this.

 

This means the can indeed run via the IND QBL (!!!) .... or the or whatever trains from the QBL, to the SAS south via 63rd Street south to Midtown, the all the way home to Seaport and Hanover Square if phase 3 (and 4, don't count on it but it's in the blueprints) is completed and connected to that existing overenginnered spur turning south from the 63rd Street line, if the operations planning team can cooridinate this if it is needed in the decade to come.

 

That in itself, as the QBL train can access the phase 3 portion at Midtown and LES, Chinatown, SoHo, etc etc., (or the reverse with SAS trains to get to even 179th Street) the transfer to the Lex will be possible at the next stop on Phase 3, 42nd Street, as the SAS will make a direct hit with the Flusing line with the  somewhere close in the vicinity of GCT. I'm unclear if there is currently a plan for the actual transfer point from that proposed station to the IRT Lex but it would make sense but that would be a heck of a walk if it is decided that during phase 3 a pedestrian walkway is constructed to connect to the then stations, using moving sidewalks in underground corridors. Using my imagination here but yes theroretically it is possible. 

 

They constructed the connection between Court Sq , and 21st-Ely , covering for the horrendous walk nwith moving sidewalks. So who knows what the MTA will decide to do to fix that problem in the future.

 

Amazing how the MTA figured this out already, in overengineering the 63rd street line to have trains from Queens access the south portion SAS, as well as BMT trains to access the north portion of the SAS. Whether our generation will live to see it is another story, that's debatable.

Edited July 23, 2013 by realizm

[Around the Horn]

Well the original 63rd Street tube's construction on the upper level has an over-engineering feature, a southbound spur, to connect any trains from the Queens Bvld Line approaching Manhattan to turn south towards 55th Street. The spur if you wish to railfan it, its right after 63rd Lex if going Queens Bound, -before- 63rd/Lex if Manhattan Bound on the , viewable from the side picture windows and is viewable from the T/O car, front cab window on any R160.

 

See diagram:

 

link: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-52DQxvPsnDY/UIg3Jrvb3wI/AAAAAAAAHMw/mV4UJHtBkFs/s1600/Lex63+diagram.gif

 

See it? Two spurs that actually exist one up the SAS, one down the SAS. That you can actually if you railfan window will notice. Youtube railfan window videos of the will also confirm this.

 

This means the can indeed run via the IND QBL (!!!) .... or the or whatever trains from the QBL, to the SAS south via 63rd Street south to Midtown, the all the way home to Seaport and Hanover Square if phase 3 (and 4, don't count on it but it's in the blueprints) is completed and connected to that existing overenginnered spur turning south from the 63rd Street line, if the operations planning team can cooridinate this if it is needed in the decade to come.

 

That in itself, as the QBL train can access the phase 3 portion at Midtown and LES, Chinatown, SoHo, etc etc., (or the reverse with SAS trains to get to even 179th Street) the transfer to the Lex will be possible at the next stop on Phase 3, 42nd Street, as the SAS will make a direct hit with the Flusing line with the  somewhere close in the vicinity of GCT. I'm unclear if there is currently a plan for the actual transfer point from that proposed station to the IRT Lex but it would make sense but that would be a heck of a walk if it is decided that during phase 3 a pedestrian walkway is constructed to connect to the then stations, using moving sidewalks in underground corridors. Using my imagination here but yes theroretically it is possible. 

 

They constructed the connection between Court Sq , and 21st-Ely , covering for the horrendous walk nwith moving sidewalks. So who knows what the MTA will decide to do to fix that problem in the future.

 

Amazing how the MTA figured this out already, in overengineering the 63rd street line to have trains from Queens access the south portion SAS, as well as BMT trains to access the north portion of the SAS. Whether our generation will live to see it is another story, that's debatable.

Realizm with the discovery.Nice job uncovering that     I never knew it existed!

[Vistausss]

realizm is right. In fact, I read about it this morning (so hours before I saw realizm's post) For more info see:

http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/lex63.html

Edited July 23, 2013 by Vistausss

[realizm]

Behold, the ( F ) Second Ave/63rd St Local - Queens Blvd Express to Hanover Square. LOL. Because that's the way the MTA actually designed the 63rd Tunnel to do. Fact.

Edited July 23, 2013 by realizm

[RollOver]

Thanks realizm and Vistausss.

[Eric B]

What are those black screens along the tracks of the QBL? You see it at Roosevelt Av as well

You mean the netting? That's for when the major signal work begins, to protect the workers from traffic on the adjacent track.

[Q90]

How about send trains to South Ferry. The IRT Lexington Avenue Loop there has been unused for quite some time so the could definitely go there without inferfering with current operations. It would stop at Fulton Street, Wall Street, and Bowling Green before terminating at South Ferry and will make provide an alternative to transferring to the for many people who use the ferry or even eliminate transfers to the or for people who take the at local stops and have to transfer to the or to get to Fulton Street because I've seen a lot of commutes do that.

[BreeddekalbL]

that wouldn't work cause the current operations has outer loop service back and where would it go? can't go inner..

[itmaybeokay]

How about send trains to South Ferry. The IRT Lexington Avenue Loop there has been unused for quite some time so the could definitely go there without inferfering with current operations. It would stop at Fulton Street, Wall Street, and Bowling Green before terminating at South Ferry and will make provide an alternative to transferring to the for many people who use the ferry or even eliminate transfers to the or for people who take the at local stops and have to transfer to the or to get to Fulton Street because I've seen a lot of commutes do that.

 

The inner loop is on such a tight curve that it had to use specially modified cars which would only open the middle set of doors on each car, which lined up with special archways on the platform wall. 

 

Even if they could modify equipment to only open these middle doors, opening one door each car on four cars would make loading times highly impractical. delays would cascade up and down the whole line. 

[Q90]

The inner loop is on such a tight curve that it had to use specially modified cars which would only open the middle set of doors on each car, which lined up with special archways on the platform wall.

 

Even if they could modify equipment to only open these middle doors, opening one door each car on four cars would make loading times highly impractical. delays would cascade up and down the whole line.

 

At least the new station will reopen soon since it was closed due to damage from Hurricane Sandy. So when it does, the train would move back to the new station and the train could use the track with the larger platform which is currently being used by the . And modifying equipment for one station would be a waste and also if the train's terminal was on a short platform like the Lexington Platform (which thanks to you I just learned, I never actually seen the loop station) then it would take beyond long to board. The Lexington platform is only currently used today to turn around trains that end at Bowling Green however the trains do not actually stop there. Edited July 28, 2013 by Q90

[Q90]

This is sort of a work in progress. I hope I'm not duplicating anything here, but here's my offering:

 

http://goo.gl/maps/IFk3c

 

Basis of this is as follows:

 

BROOKLYN

Extension of    down Flatbush Avenue

  is extended past Kings Plaza, through Floyd Bennett Field, to Jacob Riis Park.

 

   turns East at Flatlands Avenue. Connects with at Flatlands Ave/Rockaway Parkway.

  continues East through Spring Creek into Queens at Howard Beach, ends with connection at Howard Beach-JFK

  spur turns Southeast at Elton Street, ends at Erskine Street/Gateway Center

 

MANHATTAN/QUEENS

Extension of Eastward to Alley Pond Park via Roosevelt Avenue/Northern Blvd.

New (11) line spur. Separates from just west of Mets-Willets Point station. Continues Northeast via Astoria Blvd/Grand Central Parkway.

Connects with   at Astoria Blvd/31st Avenue.

Continues via tunnel under East River. Stops at Wards Island.

Runs North under Pleasant Avenue, turns West at 125th Street/FDR Drive

Connects with   (and future ) at 125th Street/Lexington Avenue

Connects with   at 125th Street/Lenox Avenue

Connects with   at 125th Street/St. Nicholas Avenue

Terminates with connection to   at 125th Street/Broadway

Your "11" train isn't bad but I'll comment on your 2 and 5 extensions. First I would only extend the 2 to Kings Plaza since the B41 needs to have it's crowding relieved. You want Jacob Riis, it's called the Q35. There is absolutely no demand on a subway to Jacob Riis Park. 5 train to Howard Beach and Gateway? Like who would use it there from anywhere along the 5 train's current route. The 5 should also be sent to Kings Plaza. If train service was to go to Gateway, I'd rather it be an extension of the 3 train. It would continue down New Lots Avenue which merges into Dumont Avenue. Then it would make a sharp right on Fountain Avenue then stop at Linden Boulevard and then end at Gateway. It's easier to send the 3 there since it's closer and then that B84 won't be necessary and could be sent somewhere else from Gateway.

[Threxx]

I actually have an IRT expansion of my own, or an improvement.

 

The Nostrand IRT would receive a lower level, an express track, for service. The and would also be extended southward.

 

Check out the map for better detail. http://goo.gl/maps/XPywp

[Q90]

I actually have an IRT expansion of my own, or an improvement.

 

The Nostrand IRT would receive a lower level, an express track, for service. The and would also be extended southward.

 

Check out the map for better detail. http://goo.gl/maps/XPywp

B44 is due to get SBS so it is unnecessary to extend the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line down Nostrand Avenue. It would only duplicate the B44 SBS. Just send it to Kings Plaza. A lot of people pack thenselves on the B41 so it would provide an alternative and the buses would be less crowded. Also should be sent to Gateway if any extension is made to it. Train service is not needed down Utica Avenue, use B46.

[Q90]

Also I will propose changing local/express in the IRT Eastern Parkway line. Make the express and the local. It would balance out service since there would be direct access to Lexington Avenue line from local stations and quicker access to 7 Avenue line. So it would look like this

 

Express:

 

Local:

 

The however will still maintain that express segment between Franklin Avenue and Utica Avenue.

[DanTheTransitMan]

Also I will propose changing local/express in the IRT Eastern Parkway line. Make the express and the local. It would balance out service since there would be direct access to Lexington Avenue line from local stations and quicker access to 7 Avenue line. So it would look like this

 

Express:

 

Local:

 

The however will still maintain that express segment between Franklin Avenue and Utica Avenue.

 

That's a really bad idea. The only way for the 4 to get to local tracks and the 2 to get to the express is via a series of crossovers just west of Atlantic ave. Your essentially creating a second bottleneck on a line that already struggles with delays as is. Having the 4 crossover to the local tracks would delay the 3 train or the 2 train. Having 2 train go express would delay the 4 or 5 train and same problem would be encountered when you get to the Nostrand interlocking just east of Franklin.