ninjazee124 Posted July 2, 2014 Share #1 Posted July 2, 2014 Does the MTA have any plans to implement CBTC on the F line anytime in the near future? I have been taking the F line in Brooklyn recently, and it's painful slow in areas and service is really irregular. Really hoping MTA will implement CBTC on this line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted July 2, 2014 Share #2 Posted July 2, 2014 They're starting by upgrading the QBL for it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biGC323232 Posted July 2, 2014 Share #3 Posted July 2, 2014 Does the MTA have any plans to implement CBTC on the F line anytime in the near future? I have been taking the F line in Brooklyn recently, and it's painful slow in areas and service is really irregular. Really hoping MTA will implement CBTC on this line. CBTC won't happen in brooklyn no time soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowblock Posted July 2, 2014 Share #4 Posted July 2, 2014 Yes, it's been in the process of being implemented as we speak. Don't expect it to actually be running in active mode for about 10 years though. One thing about the line is that with the exception of Fulton St (which is about to get the next master tower), the (as well as lines which share the F's route) is the ONLY mainline left which still has lever tower machines. So in a two-birds-with-one-stone move, these towers are getting targeted with being replaced with CBTC consoles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46Dover Posted July 2, 2014 Share #5 Posted July 2, 2014 10 years. Wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted July 3, 2014 Share #6 Posted July 3, 2014 Yes, it's been in the process of being implemented as we speak. Don't expect it to actually be running in active mode for about 10 years though. One thing about the line is that with the exception of Fulton St (which is about to get the next master tower), the (as well as lines which share the F's route) is the ONLY mainline left which still has lever tower machines. So in a two-birds-with-one-stone move, these towers are getting targeted with being replaced with CBTC consoles. I know they're doing this while the system is running 24/7, but ten years is a hell of a long time. Damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traingoat Posted July 3, 2014 Share #7 Posted July 3, 2014 I know they're doing this while the system is running 24/7, but ten years is a hell of a long time. Damn. Not really because you can't shut the line down to do it. You may reroute trains to express tracks or to local or give limited service during the 10PM-6AM slot but everything has to be cleaned up for rush hour. So you don't get 8 hrs of work but less than 6 because of setup and cleanup and interruptions with trains passing. You may think its long but I would be surprised they do it in 10 years as I expect longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjbr40 Posted July 3, 2014 Share #8 Posted July 3, 2014 one thing to clarify. It can't be done between 10 pm to 6 am. Most of Brooklyn section of the is outdoors south of Church ave. These residents will be complaining to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted July 3, 2014 Share #9 Posted July 3, 2014 I know they're doing this while the system is running 24/7, but ten years is a hell of a long time. Damn. Keep in mind that the MTA's Capital Plans are each five years long, and I've never personally heard of any major projects being added to capital plans midway. The Queens Boulevard Line would be the most difficult CBTC implementation in the world to date, simply because no other project has dealt with multiple trains from non-CBTC track merging into a giant, messy CBTC trunk line. That means that the MTA had better work out all the technical requirements before actually doing anything. one thing to clarify. It can't be done between 10 pm to 6 am. Most of Brooklyn section of the is outdoors south of Church ave. These residents will be complaining to you. I don't think it's being done on Culver; Culver is not where the (F)'s capacity constraints are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Union Tpke Posted July 3, 2014 Share #10 Posted July 3, 2014 And it will sure being fun having all of the weekend diversions on Queens Blvd! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N6 Limited Posted July 3, 2014 Share #11 Posted July 3, 2014 Doesn't the line become junk with the slightest issue with the signals? The T/O's are there to take over but they usually just shut the line down so wouldn't CBTC make the QB Line more susceptible to problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted July 4, 2014 Share #12 Posted July 4, 2014 Doesn't the line become junk with the slightest issue with the signals? The T/O's are there to take over but they usually just shut the line down so wouldn't CBTC make the QB Line more susceptible to problems? It depends on the reliability of the system and what kind of contingency they decide to leave in, none of which is possible to foresee right now (has the MTA even signed a contract for the vendor yet?). Hopefully they learn from the mistake with the and keep at least a barebones wayside signal system, because any Queens Blvd CBTC is going to be very unreliable, at least from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowblock Posted July 4, 2014 Share #13 Posted July 4, 2014 Removing the signals from the Canarsie line was a huge mistake that the MTA immediately regretted. Bear in mind that the L CBTC system is not going to be reused. The 7 and every future line has been redesigned from the bottom up to not have the same issues that the L did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N6 Limited Posted July 4, 2014 Share #14 Posted July 4, 2014 Removing the signals from the Canarsie line was a huge mistake that the MTA immediately regretted. Bear in mind that the L CBTC system is not going to be reused. The 7 and every future line has been redesigned from the bottom up to not have the same issues that the L did. I sure hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan Railer Posted July 4, 2014 Share #15 Posted July 4, 2014 It makes sense, considering the L was basically the guinea pig for CBTC implementation. For that to have gone even 95% flawlessly would have been amazing. The only question now is how long is the typical design life for a CBTC system, since that will probably be how long it is before the MTA can correct the initial issues with the L signal system via procuring a new and (by that time) standard-to-the-network CBTC system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewJC Posted July 8, 2014 Share #16 Posted July 8, 2014 Doesn't the line become junk with the slightest issue with the signals? As if other lines don't? The L has only two tracks, and the L is very busy, so an outage is incredibly disruptive, but an outage would be disruptive regardless of the type of signal system. Removing the signals from the Canarsie line was a huge mistake that the MTA immediately regretted. The point of replacing the signal system on the line was to replace the signal system, not to leave the 1920's signals in place. No signal modernization project is going to leave the old signals around in case the new signal system breaks! And installing two high capacity signal systems is a costly luxury that the MTA can't afford. The Flushing line will have new wayside signals as a backup to CBTC, but not nearly enough of them to support anything resembling rush hour service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHV9218 Posted July 10, 2014 Share #17 Posted July 10, 2014 The point of replacing the signal system on the line was to replace the signal system, not to leave the 1920's signals in place. No signal modernization project is going to leave the old signals around in case the new signal system breaks! And installing two high capacity signal systems is a costly luxury that the MTA can't afford. The Flushing line will have new wayside signals as a backup to CBTC, but not nearly enough of them to support anything resembling rush hour service. Right. It's also a stretch to say the MTA "immediately regretted" the project. Perhaps the manner in which the modernization occurred was unpopular with some, but from a larger, non-RTO-specific perspective, the Canarsie CBTC has been a success and has also taught the MTA how to better modernize future lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted July 12, 2014 Share #18 Posted July 12, 2014 10 years. Wow Yeah, the QBL CBTC project will be complete in 2019 according to contracts presented to the public on the MTA site. But in practice it can take longer than that as what happened with the installation on the 14th Street/Canarsie Line. This is an unique system as it is a combo of block signaling and CBTC. Only one other regional rail system in the US actually has this form of automated signaling technology, so this new CBTC technology is still fairly new. I believe as far as the London Underground Siemens was to accept the contract to install CBTC on this British rapid transit rail network which is exactly the type of CBTC system to be installed on the IND Queens Blvd line however they opted out because of the feared complications of integration of CBTC signalling into traditional block signaling systems. The new s7 and s8 stock are CBTC equipped and now being put into service on the London underground. It is anticipated that the R211's might be the cars to be able to handle the innovative technology on Queens Blvd, a decade from now according to hints from the recent MTA 20 Year Assessment Needs package released to the public, which *might* have similar features to the Toronto Rockets and somewhat the S7 and S8 stock (R211's speculated to 60' articulated cars with open gangways with advanced state of the art technology. The MTA plans for the R211s are still in the planning stages so this is subject to change). The point of replacing the signal system on the line was to replace the signal system, not to leave the 1920's signals in place. No signal modernization project is going to leave the old signals around in case the new signal system breaks! And installing two high capacity signal systems is a costly luxury that the MTA can't afford. The Flushing line will have new wayside signals as a backup to CBTC, but not nearly enough of them to support anything resembling rush hour service. OK but the CBTC systems will be installed in sections. First the QBL then the 53rd St and 63rd Street corridors and then the IND 8th Avenue line. And a combo set up such as described as mentioned above does exist. So it is doable, albeit with initial complications. Generally agreed the point of this is to replace all of the older signal block signaling throughout the system, A and B division, a feat that will take decades to complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTA Dude Posted July 12, 2014 Share #19 Posted July 12, 2014 Yeah, the QBL CBTC project will be complete in 2019 according to contracts presented to the public on the MTA site. But in practice it can take longer than that as what happened with the installation on the 14th Street/Canarsie Line. This is an unique system as it is a combo of block signaling and CBTC. Only one other regional rail system in the US actually has this form of automated signaling technology, so this new CBTC technology is still fairly new. I believe as far as the London Underground Siemens was to accept the contract to install CBTC on this British rapid transit rail network which is exactly the type of CBTC system to be installed on the IND Queens Blvd line however they opted out because of the feared complications of integration of CBTC signalling into traditional block signaling systems. The new s7 and s8 stock are CBTC equipped and now being put into service on the London underground. It is anticipated that the R211's might be the cars to be able to handle the innovative technology on Queens Blvd, a decade from now according to hints from the recent MTA 20 Year Assessment Needs package released to the public, which *might* have similar features to the Toronto Rockets and somewhat the S7 and S8 stock (R211's speculated to 60' articulated cars with open gangways with advanced state of the art technology. The MTA plans for the R211s are still in the planning stages so this is subject to change). OK but the CBTC systems will be installed in sections. First the QBL then the 53rd St and 63rd Street corridors and then the IND 8th Avenue line. And a combo set up such as described as mentioned above does exist. So it is doable, albeit with initial complications. Generally agreed the point of this is to replace all of the older signal block signaling throughout the system, A and B division, a feat that will take decades to complete. How exactly will CBTC work when shared with other lines that won't use it? Are the gonna use it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted July 12, 2014 Share #20 Posted July 12, 2014 How exactly will CBTC work when shared with other lines that won't use it? Are the gonna use it? I believe only the express ROWs will be retrofitted with CBTC signaling from Queens Plaza to Union Tpke. There is preliminary work as Eric B has mentioned being done at 74th St-Jackson Heights in anticipation for the work to come later this year. No contract has been established as of yet for the local tracks on the QBL. Subject to change pending funds. They will install CBTC on the IND 8th Ave Line thereafter. Page 47: http://web.mta.info/mta/capital/pdf/TYN2015-2034.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainfan22 Posted July 13, 2014 Share #21 Posted July 13, 2014 I wonder, when CBTC is up on the F line how the relays at 179th will be done. Will the actual relay be in ATO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted July 13, 2014 Share #22 Posted July 13, 2014 Good question. I'll have to ask then: Are the relays on the Canarsie line done in ATO? (I think they do, cant remember...) If it is then I guess they will do the same once the MTA makes it to 179th Street with future CBTC expansion past Union Tpke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewJC Posted July 14, 2014 Share #23 Posted July 14, 2014 OK but the CBTC systems will be installed in sections. First the QBL then the 53rd St and 63rd Street corridors and then the IND 8th Avenue line. And a combo set up such as described as mentioned above does exist. So it is doable, albeit with initial complications. Not quite. The "Queens Boulevard Line West" CBTC project runs from 50th St. in Manhattan to Union Turnpike in Queens. http://web.mta.info/capitaldashboard/allframenew_head.html?PROJNUM=t6080319&PLTYPE=1 How exactly will CBTC work when shared with other lines that won't use it? Are the gonna use it? Once CBTC is cut over, any train that runs on the Queens Blvd. line will need to be CBTC-equipped - so, yes, that includes the M and R. Trains will transition into and out of CBTC when they enter and exit CBTC territory. I believe only the express ROWs will be retrofitted with CBTC signaling from Queens Plaza to Union Tpke. There is preliminary work as Eric B has mentioned being done at 74th St-Jackson Heights in anticipation for the work to come later this year. No contract has been established as of yet for the local tracks on the QBL. Subject to change pending funds. They will install CBTC on the IND 8th Ave Line thereafter. Page 47: http://web.mta.info/mta/capital/pdf/TYN2015-2034.pdf The signals on all four tracks are of the same vintage, and all trains on the line need to be able to run on all tracks (at the very least for reroutes), so it would be pretty silly for CBTC to cover only two of the four. CBTC will, in fact, be on all four tracks. The interlockings at Roosevelt, Continental, and Union Turnpike are being modernized now, separate from but in preparation for the big CBTC project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N6 Limited Posted July 17, 2014 Share #24 Posted July 17, 2014 What does "modernizing" the interlockings entail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewJC Posted July 18, 2014 Share #25 Posted July 18, 2014 What does "modernizing" the interlockings entail? http://www.railworks.com/sites/default/files/railworks-today/June-2010-web.pdf - An example from a few years ago. Like Chambers St., the Queens interlockings being modernized are all original IND construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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