Bronx Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Fresh Pond]

What the hell does Fulton St have to do with this in the first damn place...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What the hell does Fulton St have to do with this in the first damn place...

 

 

And so does the Grand Concorse. Unlike Fulton street LTD buses operate on the Concorse. 

 

 

I get all that about the BxM1 >> BxM2 (in terms of which is marketed more).....

 

The ultimate point I'm making though, is there there needs to be a more uniform usage of destination signage... Not just with Riverdale's super expresses, but system-wide (I'm including local buses in this/with this issue too, because there are buses that all terminate in the same area, but have different destination signage(s) [cadman plz. in downtown brooklyn is a good example of that]).....

 

Anyway, If both routes' (BxM1 & 2) super expresses travel via riverdale av, then either have both of them use the signage, or neither one of the routes use the signage....

I agree with you, but the problem is that for some buses, they don't necessarily run down a main corridor, so that can become tricky and difficult.  I thought about the whole via KAPPOCK ST signage and I guess the thinking was that the bus serves the West Side and hits numerous popular destinations along the way.  It terminates at Penn Station which is a major transit and shopping hub, so that will already get some people's interest and will attract certain riders and once they look at the map, they'll see where it goes and see if it meets their needs or not.  I see quite a few people with luggage on the BxM2 vs. the BxM1.  In fact I have NEVER seen anyone with luggage on the BxM1 while I do regularly on the BxM2 in the summer.  I'm sure the signage has something to do with it.  I think they try to provide more information where possible on some routes.  For example, the X10 used to just say "PT RICHMOND".  Now they have added "via BROADWAY" to try to attract more riders and to give more insight as to where the bus runs to pick up passengers.

[qjtransitmaster]

What the hell does Fulton St have to do with this in the first damn place...

Its a comparison

[lupojohn]

Then why is ridership lower than peak only queens express buses by this logic lets add a bxm12 to serve Westchester ave via the hub. You still can't explain why it does so poorly. There are many areas without ADA and do fine without an express bus. If people want faster service there are many options bx41 sbs, bx15 ltd, bx1 ltd, metro-north and at rushhour 3 subway lines. 

Why should people jam in an already overcrowded train? 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Why should people jam in an already overcrowded train? 

He has an obsession with cutting the BxM4 and finding any reason to justify doing so, period.  I already told the guy why and he still keeps ranting and raving.  Worse than a child... 

[qjtransitmaster]

Why should people jam in an already overcrowded train? 

You mean 4 lines to be exact. & metro- north and 3 LTD stop lines nearby. Bx15, 41 & 1.on nearby corridors. Next

He has an obsession with cutting the BxM4 and finding any reason to justify doing so, period.  I already told the guy why and he still keeps ranting and raving.  Worse than a child... 

Seriously

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

You mean 4 lines to be exact. & metro- north and 3 LTD stop lines nearby. Bx15, 41 & 1.on nearby corridors. Next

 

Seriously

Yeah, except the Bx15 runs weekdays only, the 41 is SBS and isn't close by to most BxM4 stops, and god help you if you're waiting for the Bx1. And look, not everyone has metro north accessible near them. Metro-north is the farthest option for them, and Metro North doesn't run to most places the BxM4 serves in Manhattan.

Edited July 30, 2014 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Armandito]

Bx37: Local service between Bay Plaza and Norwood via Bainbridge Av, E Gun Hill Rd, White Plains Rd, Burke Av, Eastchester Rd, Hammersley Av, Ely Av, Givan Av, Baychester Av, Boston Rd, Conner St, Peartree Av, Co-op City Blvd, Dreiser Loop, Bartow Av, and Asch Loop. Bus will operate daily from 6AM to midnight and run every 15 minutes during rush hours and every 30 minutes all other times.

Edited August 12, 2014 by lara8710

[aemoreira81]

You mean 4 lines to be exact. & metro- north and 3 LTD stop lines nearby. Bx15, 41 & 1.on nearby corridors. Next

 

 

 

The lines may look close on a map, but they serve distinct corridors and do not duplicate each other, largely because of major differences in elevation and the Metro-North line that divides the neighborhoods. Other than the endpoints of those corridors (considering Melrose and Webster to be one street), which thus eliminates 149 Street and Fordham Road, the only street that crosses Grand Concourse, Webster Avenue, and Third Avenue uninterrupted is Tremont Avenue (which is also the only cross-borough street in the Bronx).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The lines may look close on a map, but they serve distinct corridors and do not duplicate each other, largely because of major differences in elevation and the Metro-North line that divides the neighborhoods. Other than the endpoints of those corridors (considering Melrose and Webster to be one street), which thus eliminates 149 Street and Fordham Road, the only street that crosses Grand Concourse, Webster Avenue, and Third Avenue uninterrupted is Tremont Avenue (which is also the only cross-borough street in the Bronx).

Not only that but the topography in that area can be very hilly and a PITA to walk around.  Given the amount of seniors and disabled folks along or near the Concourse, they esp. need the BxM4 express bus and use it.

[aemoreira81]

Not only that but the topography in that area can be very hilly and a PITA to walk around.  Given the amount of seniors and disabled folks along or near the Concourse, they esp. need the BxM4 express bus and use it.

 

The BxM4 carries well on the northern end, but how well does it carry along the Concourse? If it were made a branch of the BxM3 via the Tracey Towers instead, would it perform better? (It would not serve the Concourse, but it would still serve Norwood and Woodlawn.)

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I think it's better off having the 3 and 4 seperate, because you're still providing 30 minute headways in the area north of fordham till about Mosholu (which isn't that much to begin with), and you'd still serve the concourse.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

 

I think it's better off having the 3 and 4 seperate, because you're still providing 30 minute headways in the area north of fordham till about Mosholu (which isn't that much to begin with), and you'd still serve the concourse.

 

 

The BxM4 carries well on the northern end, but how well does it carry along the Concourse? If it were made a branch of the BxM3 via the Tracey Towers instead, would it perform better? (It would not serve the Concourse, but it would still serve Norwood and Woodlawn.)

The first two stops in mind is what helps justify running the BxM4 along the Concourse.  You have a few co-ops between 158th and 165th, and that's where most of the improvements have been along the Concourse in terms of financial improvements by the borough president from what I understand, along with the Yankees.  You also have the courthouses right there and the Bronx Museum at 165th.  However after those two stops is where the problem is.  You don't have any co-ops or condos to speak of that would draw the type of clientele looking for express bus service.  There are plenty of apartment buildings but the folks simply can't afford the express bus and that's the problem. If there was gentrification further north of 165th street, I could see the BxM4 gaining more riders.  The other issue is the frequency.  The BxM4 runs right by Montefiore Medical Center and the Children's Hospital at Montefiore which could be a HUGE generator, but instead only a few folks use it because it run frequent enough.  The BxM10 gets a TON of ridership from Albert Einstein and Montefiore there in Morris Park, and I've heard from some B/O's along the BxM4 that some folks working at Montefiore stopped using it because they kept changing the run times and making almost impossible for them to catch the bus so they switched to the subway.  If the BxM4 was better advertised and ran even with just 30 minute frequencies for longer stretches of the day it would be more attractive, but with hourly headways, the buses can be quite delayed and the waits can be long.

 

The other issue is advertising. I know for example that the Montefiore advertises the BxM10, but I'm not sure how well other organizations or businesses advertise the BxM4.  The Bronx Zoo certainly advertises the BxM11 which is why weekend ridership on the BxM11 is good because a lot of tourists and folks from the Upper East Side use the express bus (as a family) to go to the Zoo.  The could advertise the BxM4 for Yankee games, but instead they advertise Metro-North.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

 

 

 

 

The first two stops in mind is what helps justify running the BxM4 along the Concourse.  You have a few co-ops between 158th and 165th, and that's where most of the improvements have been along the Concourse in terms of financial improvements by the borough president from what I understand, along with the Yankees.  You also have the courthouses right there and the Bronx Museum at 165th.  However after those two stops is where the problem is.  You don't have any co-ops or condos to speak of that would draw the type of clientele looking for express bus service.  There are plenty of apartment buildings but the folks simply can't afford the express bus and that's the problem. If there was gentrification further north of 165th street, I could see the BxM4 gaining more riders.  The other issue is the frequency.  The BxM4 runs right by Montefiore Medical Center and the Children's Hospital at Montefiore which could be a HUGE generator, but instead only a few folks use it because it run frequent enough.  The BxM10 gets a TON of ridership from Albert Einstein and Montefiore there in Morris Park, and I've heard from some B/O's along the BxM4 that some folks working at Montefiore stopped using it because they kept changing the run times and making almost impossible for them to catch the bus so they switched to the subway.  If the BxM4 was better advertised and ran even with just 30 minute frequencies for longer stretches of the day it would be more attractive, but with hourly headways, the buses can be quite delayed and the waits can be long.

 

The other issue is advertising. I know for example that the Montefiore advertises the BxM10, but I'm not sure how well other organizations or businesses advertise the BxM4.  The Bronx Zoo certainly advertises the BxM11 which is why weekend ridership on the BxM11 is good because a lot of tourists and folks from the Upper East Side use the express bus (as a family) to go to the Zoo.  The could advertise the BxM4 for Yankee games, but instead they advertise Metro-North.

 

They do mention the BxM4, but like, nothing major, just like another bus. Yeah, the BxM4 has had way too many span changes, and there's been no consistent schedule. That explains a part of the decline of ridership over the years, but what is the rest ( I know the economy has been another one)?

 

Also, another thing: There are people who utilize the QM1/QM5/QM6 from St. Johns University (maybe if nearby colleges advertised the BxM4 and made note, people might be able to use it).

Edited August 13, 2014 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They do mention the BxM4, but like, nothing major, just like another bus. Yeah, the BxM4 has had way too many span changes, and there's been no consistent schedule. That explains a part of the decline of ridership over the years, but what is the rest ( I know the economy has been another one)?

 

Also, another thing: There are people who utilize the QM1/QM5/QM6 from St. Johns University (maybe if nearby colleges advertised the BxM4 and made note, people might be able to use it).

Yes.... I can tell you that every college here in Riverdale, just about all doctors' offices, dentists, etc., they ALL mention the express buses here in Riverdale. I'm not sure that many businesses do that along the Concourse.  Then again you're talking about a completely different clientele.  Like I said if you had more co-ops and condos along the Concourse you would have a more solid base.  Bay Ridge for example has TONS of co-ops and condos along Shore Rd., and the X27/X37 are heavily advertised when renting or selling apartments along Shore Rd or in the vicinity.  The other reason for the drop in my mind is that I think some folks in Woodlawn were quite pissed with the cuts. From what I've heard they make a huge stink about it and I'm sure some as a result switched to Metro-North.  I'm almost certain that had something to do with the run span being expanded during the week to 00:15 when it was previously 22:45 I believe.  Yonkers also wants the line to attract more riders, hence the run span changes, so they've been experimenting with how to draw more riders.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Something else I wanted to add... When the wants a service to do well, they know how to advertise it.  They've been very aggressive about increasing Metro-North ridership in Riverdale and in Spuyten Duyvil and they put up several posters marketing the Hudson Rail Link bus and having a quick commute to Grand Central at numerous bus shelters in the area.  Those posters stayed up for months along Riverdale Avenue and Kappock St.  Then they announced more frequent service for both Metro-North stations here, and ridership has steadily been increasing, so in short the is well aware of the markets they have and how to attract new riders and where to get the most bang for the buck.  I'm not so sure that they're being as aggressive as they could with attracting more BxM4 riders.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8

[GreatOne2k]

Something else I wanted to add... When the wants a service to do well, they know how to advertise it.  They've been very aggressive about increasing Metro-North ridership in Riverdale and in Spuyten Duyvil and they put up several posters marketing the Hudson Rail Link bus and having a quick commute to Grand Central at numerous bus shelters in the area.  Those posters stayed up for months along Riverdale Avenue and Kappock St.  Then they announced more frequent service for both Metro-North stations here, and ridership has steadily been increasing, so in short the is well aware of the markets they have and how to attract new riders and where to get the most bang for the buck.  I'm not so sure that they're being as aggressive as they could with attracting more BxM4 riders.

 

They need to run Hudson Rail Link on weekends as well, unless people walk to the stations, or use express buses instead.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They need to run Hudson Rail Link on weekends as well, unless people walk to the stations, or use express buses instead.

People tend to use the express buses more on weekends.  The people who live within walking distance to the Metro-North stations use it daily.  There are actually enough co-ops and condos nearby to keep ridership healthy even without the Rail Link Bus.  Others will drive there if they really need it, but many opt for the express bus on weekends mainly because folks are shopping (i.e. Trader Joe's or Whole Foods, or shopping on 34th, Upper West or Upper East Side) and with bags they don't want to deal with switching.  The express bus leaves a lot of folks within steps of their apartments, so Metro-North is much more for work and less for play if you will, while the express buses are very much a mix of both.  The BxM2 is a prime example of that.  It's one of the few express buses that has higher ridership on weekends than during the week.

 

I use Metro-North here and there on weekends. I can walk to the Metro-North station from my apartment (roughly 20 minutes or so with the shortcuts I take), but the need to switch even when I get to Grand Central is a major determent for me given how much time I spend on the Upper East and Upper West Side and other areas not near Grand Central on weekends, but I certainly use it during the week for work.  I do however use Metro-North as a backup in case I'm the city past the time when the express buses stop running which is rare, since the BxM1 runs until almost 01:00 in the morning Saturdays, and the BxM2 runs until almost 01:30, but others will also just opt. for yellow taxi cab. It's a very quick ride to Riverdale (15 - 20 minutes depending on your location in the city) and roughly $35.00 with tip.  I see plenty of yellow taxis in my area making drop-offs.  If you have two people it's roughly $17.00.  If you take Metro-North it's $4.00 a person on weekends with City Ticket, then a cab from the station, so it's almost the same with two folks and hence makes sense to get a cab from the city.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

The BxM4 carries well on the northern end, but how well does it carry along the Concourse?

 

If it were made a branch of the BxM3 via the Tracey Towers instead, would it perform better?

(It would not serve the Concourse, but it would still serve Norwood and Woodlawn.)

Forget about giving Tracey Towers express bus service; the BxM4a was an afterthought to those folks.... They were (and still are) too busy piling on Bx1/2's & 28's....

 

Here's the thing man.... The BxM4 doesn't carry well enough on the northern end of the route to justify not having buses serve the concourse... In other words, the BxM4 needs both portions of the route to stay alive.... During the rush (at least), I'd say the northern portion of the route & the southern portion of the route carries approx. the same amount of riders.... The difference is w/ the northern half, the ridership is in two bundles (basically) - [within woodlawn itself] & [along bainbridge b/w gun hill & van cortlandt av. E]... With the southern half, the ridership is spread out along the concourse from top to bottom (of the route); there's no real heavy/dominant stop, per se....

 

Furthermore, I see no point in f*cking up service for Sedgwick riders (which is what branching the BxM3 in such a manner would accomplish), so that the BxM4 runs straight to Norwood area from Manhattan, en route to Woodlawn..... Simply put, the BxM4 needs the Concourse ridership more than the BxM3 does.... The BxM3, I'd say, gets maybe 2x more riders overall than the BxM4 does.....

 

As for that last question....

How in the world would the BxM4 perform better with less riders - When it's almost bringing up the rear in overall ridership, as far as express buses in this city's concerned?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Forget about giving Tracey Towers express bus service; the BxM4a was an afterthought to those folks.... They were (and still are) too busy piling on Bx1/2's & 28's....

 

Here's the thing man.... The BxM4 doesn't carry well enough on the northern end of the route to justify not having buses serve the concourse... In other words, the BxM4 needs both portions of the route to stay alive.... During the rush (at least), I'd say the northern portion of the route & the southern portion of the route carries approx. the same amount of riders.... The difference is w/ the northern half, the ridership is in two bundles (basically) - [within woodlawn itself] & [along bainbridge b/w gun hill & van cortlandt av. E]... With the southern half, the ridership is spread out along the concourse from top to bottom (of the route); there's no real heavy/dominant stop, per se....

 

Furthermore, I see no point in f*cking up service for Sedgwick riders (which is what branching the BxM3 in such a manner would accomplish), so that the BxM4 runs straight to Norwood area from Manhattan, en route to Woodlawn..... Simply put, the BxM4 needs the Concourse ridership more than the BxM3 does.... The BxM3, I'd say, gets maybe 2x more riders overall than the BxM4 does.....

 

As for that last question....

How in the world would the BxM4 perform better with less riders - When it's almost bringing up the rear in overall ridership, as far as express buses in this city's concerned?

I would have to agree with this assessment.  The two big stops though are 161st and 165th, then after that a sprinkling of riders getting off until you reach Bedford Park and Norwood.  I still think that the Montefiore stop could be a much better draw, similar to what Albert Einstein and Montefiore does in terms of good ridership for the BxM10.  I also think if Norwood could come back from what most consider to be a decline (used to be a more middle class Irish nabe before the drug epidemic took over parts of that area) then that could help ridership too, but a lot of the area is pretty ghetto and it's been hard to draw the type of folks that would use the express bus given the folks hanging around but the draw for some parts is that it's quiet and the apartments are big and nice from what I've heard. The saving grace for Norwood is that little area around up by Rochambeau Av near Montefiore. The hospital keeps that area desirable because Montefiore has a respectable reputation so there's hope of that area coming back (as in Norwood as a whole versus just a few decent pockets).  I think if the BxM4 could get more ridership in Norwood and in Bedford Park (both of which have the potential to draw the kind of folks looking for express bus service) it could do better, but both of these areas are more "working class" if you will and are trying to make a come back after being on the decline.  Woodlawn and the Yonkers border for what it's worth is where a good amount of weekend ridership comes from, but certainly not enough.  Too many from Woodlawn along Katonah are focused on Metro-North, but the older folks certainly use it.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Armandito]

Here's the link to the Bx37 route map: https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zh758mgJc1tw.kWrhHm_ZW9sA

Edited August 13, 2014 by lara8710

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Here's the link to the Bx37 route map: https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zh758mgJc1tw.kWrhHm_ZW9sA

Burke Avenue is pretty close to Gun Hill Road. It parallels the Bx28/30/38 for the most part. You might as well add extra Bx30 (which I don't think is needed). That route is just too indirect for anyone to use.

[aemoreira81]

Forget about giving Tracey Towers express bus service; the BxM4a was an afterthought to those folks.... They were (and still are) too busy piling on Bx1/2's & 28's....

 

Here's the thing man.... The BxM4 doesn't carry well enough on the northern end of the route to justify not having buses serve the concourse... In other words, the BxM4 needs both portions of the route to stay alive.... During the rush (at least), I'd say the northern portion of the route & the southern portion of the route carries approx. the same amount of riders.... The difference is w/ the northern half, the ridership is in two bundles (basically) - [within woodlawn itself] & [along bainbridge b/w gun hill & van cortlandt av. E]... With the southern half, the ridership is spread out along the concourse from top to bottom (of the route); there's no real heavy/dominant stop, per se....

 

Furthermore, I see no point in f*cking up service for Sedgwick riders (which is what branching the BxM3 in such a manner would accomplish), so that the BxM4 runs straight to Norwood area from Manhattan, en route to Woodlawn..... Simply put, the BxM4 needs the Concourse ridership more than the BxM3 does.... The BxM3, I'd say, gets maybe 2x more riders overall than the BxM4 does.....

 

As for that last question....

How in the world would the BxM4 perform better with less riders - When it's almost bringing up the rear in overall ridership, as far as express buses in this city's concerned?

 

 

The idea of the Tracey Towers was simply as a through routing for bypassing the Concourse...I would propose it still for select trips because most of the Concourse is dead insofar as express ridership is cocnerned. An alternate plan might have the route bypass Sedgwick, but have the bus use Fordham to University to Reservoir Avenue, to serve Lehman College before Norwood.

Edited August 13, 2014 by aemoreira81

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

The idea of the Tracey Towers was simply as a through routing for bypassing the Concourse...I would propose it still for select trips because most of the Concourse is dead insofar as express ridership is cocnerned.

That would right into the MTA;s hands to cut the trips off that route.

[qjtransitmaster]

That would right into the MTA;s hands to cut the trips off that route.

Nothing is going to stop the MTA from doing so.

The idea of the Tracey Towers was simply as a through routing for bypassing the Concourse...I would propose it still for select trips because most of the Concourse is dead insofar as express ridership is cocnerned. An alternate plan might have the route bypass Sedgwick, but have the bus use Fordham to University to Reservoir Avenue, to serve Lehman College before Norwood.

Lol  good luck Lehman doesn't need an express bus end of story.