Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Armandito]

I don't think a Midwood-JFK route needs local service in Brooklyn. One, the layout of parking spots along Foster Avenue would limit the amount of bus stops placed along that corridor, and two, making it local would contradict its purpose of providing central and eastern Brooklyn riders a fast, one-seat trip to the airport. It would also make the route less attactive and more unreliable. If local service is implemented in addition to LTD service, few people would be hopping onto the local buses anyway--since they'll tend to favor the faster LTD buses that'll take them to their destinations quicker, even if it means walking a couple of blocks or so to a LTD stop to catch one of them.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Q44SBS

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If you guys want more efficient bus service in Brooklyn, get involved with communities whether amongst yourselves or other neighborhoods and press the . We know the ins and outs of the system more than the general public.

 

Why do you think VG8 and his neighborhoods are on top of their express bus service so much? Whenever he encounters issues, he gets on it by means of email, meetings, etc.

I have worked in Brooklyn to help restore some lines too so if the elected officials are willing to get involved, it can happen.  We got weekend service back on the X27 and X28, as well as the B4 restored, along with the B2, B37 and B64.  

[Future ENY OP]

I don't think a Midwood-JFK route needs local service in Brooklyn. One, the layout of parking spots along Foster Avenue would limit the amount of bus stops placed along that corridor, and two, making it local would contradict its purpose of providing central and eastern Brooklyn riders a fast, one-seat trip to the airport. It would also make the route less attactive and more unreliable. If local service is implemented in addition to LTD service, few people would be hopping onto the local buses anyway--since they'll tend to favor the faster LTD buses that'll take them to their destinations quicker, even if it means walking a couple of blocks or so to a LTD stop to catch one of them.

This route has to be strictly Limited.

B80 doesn't need to be a local.

 

The good part about this route is most of the bus stops would be on the corners rather than after the light. In addition, possibly signal priority for buses only on the major intersections. This is an attractive 1 seat ride to JFK.

[Armandito]

This route has to be strictly Limited.

B80 doesn't need to be a local.

 

The good part about this route is most of the bus stops would be on the corners rather than after the light. In addition, possibly signal priority for buses only on the major intersections. This is an attractive 1 seat ride to JFK.

Facts.

[B35 via Church]

But you haven't provided a reason why you would oppose an extension to the B35.

I really don't want to have a debate/discussion about this, as extending the B35 to JFK is that ridiculous, the way I see it.... The route between McDonald & Mother Gaston alone carries far too many riders that would be impacted by an extension of such a magnitude... Worse than that, for as frequent buses are along the route, buses are often subject to tie-ups for too long a stretch along the route, esp. during the rush hour.... I'm talking from as far as Coney Island av to around Utica.... Nobody ever really talks about how late buses are around here because of the sheer frequency, but quite frankly, I'm sick & tired of seeing a sea of LTD's heading to Sunset Park (while waiting for a bus back west from McDonald), crushloaded LTD's due west in the process, and McDonald av bound B35's arriving in bunches at McDonald...

 

You can't just look at how the B35 is situated within the bus network in this borough (centralized, while being a straight east-west route w/ just the one turn off church onto E. 98th) & think it's this grand idea to run it all the way to JFK - again, regardless of how many stops you wouldn't have it make from the more eastern portion of East Flatbush....

 

You can make your points of contention, but it's going to fall on deaf ears with me.. I'm telling you now.

So do as you wish, man...

 

.. The LGA to Brooklyn bus route is a bit difficult to come by just simply because of traffic issues.

Also, the Brooklyn Transportation grid is a bit confusing and complex to the point you can't really pull anything for LGA.

The transportation network is a bit better for JFK.

That snippet of mine should have read:

"....I don't have a second Brooklyn-JFK route as a priority in the grand scheme of things"

[Eric B]

I think both the 35 and the 8 should just be extended a few blocks to Junius (which recently got a new little shopping plaza) for the connection to the . Create a little transit hub there, and then it should be no problem for B5 riders to transfer to the 15 get to JFK.

[BrooklynBus]

I really don't want to have a debate/discussion about this, as extending the B35 to JFK is that ridiculous, the way I see it.... The route between McDonald & Mother Gaston alone carries far too many riders that would be impacted by an extension of such a magnitude... Worse than that, for as frequent buses are along the route, buses are often subject to tie-ups for too long a stretch along the route, esp. during the rush hour.... I'm talking from as far as Coney Island av to around Utica.... Nobody ever really talks about how late buses are around here because of the sheer frequency, but quite frankly, I'm sick & tired of seeing a sea of LTD's heading to Sunset Park (while waiting for a bus back west from McDonald), crushloaded LTD's due west in the process, and McDonald av bound B35's arriving in bunches at McDonald...

 

You can't just look at how the B35 is situated within the bus network in this borough (centralized, while being a straight east-west route w/ just the one turn off church onto E. 98th) & think it's this grand idea to run it all the way to JFK - again, regardless of how many stops you wouldn't have it make from the more eastern portion of East Flatbush....

 

You can make your points of contention, but it's going to fall on deaf ears with me.. I'm telling you now.

So do as you wish, man...

 

Nothing you have stated indicates a reason why the route proposal would be a poor idea. All the problems you state are operational issues that could be corrected if anyone wanted to clear them up. If the route is jam packed now, you add more service. Bus bunching is not a satisfactory reason for not making a route change.

 

If the street can't handle any more buses, there are ways around that also like having JFK buses using Snyder where it parallels Church and is a two way street.

 

But the real reason why the B35 is so heavily utilized is because it is the only true east west route in the area. The B8 becomes a north south route in Borough Park and the B12 zig zags a lot so you have to go all the way to St Johns Place for another east west route.

 

There needs to be an east west route along Clarkson Avenue to take some of the load off the B35. I would restructure the B12 and other routes to accomplish that. But if you don't want to get that complicated, you can superimpose a new JFK route using Clarkson instead of Church until Rockaway Parkway and then to Linden Blvd with one stop at Cross Bay Blvd. Would you be in favor of that instead?

 

 

That snippet of mine should have read:

"....I don't have a second Brooklyn-JFK route as a priority in the grand scheme of things"

[Future ENY OP]

I think both the 35 and the 8 should just be extended a few blocks to Junius (which recently got a new little shopping plaza) for the connection to the . Create a little transit hub there, and then it should be no problem for B5 riders to transfer to the 15 get to JFK.

The B14 connects to the on Junius. No need for any additional extensions. Bad enough both routes travel a pretty distance. So extending further into Brownsville is not the best logical sense. Unless u can state a good case otherwise. No need for the extension.

[B35 via Church]

 

I really don't want to have a debate/discussion about this, as extending the B35 to JFK is that ridiculous, the way I see it.... The route between McDonald & Mother Gaston alone carries far too many riders that would be impacted by an extension of such a magnitude... Worse than that, for as frequent buses are along the route, buses are often subject to tie-ups for too long a stretch along the route, esp. during the rush hour.... I'm talking from as far as Coney Island av to around Utica.... Nobody ever really talks about how late buses are around here because of the sheer frequency, but quite frankly, I'm sick & tired of seeing a sea of LTD's heading to Sunset Park (while waiting for a bus back west from McDonald), crushloaded LTD's due west in the process, and McDonald av bound B35's arriving in bunches at McDonald...

 

You can't just look at how the B35 is situated within the bus network in this borough (centralized, while being a straight east-west route w/ just the one turn off church onto E. 98th) & think it's this grand idea to run it all the way to JFK - again, regardless of how many stops you wouldn't have it make from the more eastern portion of East Flatbush....

 

You can make your points of contention, but it's going to fall on deaf ears with me.. I'm telling you now.

So do as you wish, man...

 

Nothing you have stated indicates a reason why the route proposal would be a poor idea. All the problems you state are operational issues that could be corrected if anyone wanted to clear them up. If the route is jam packed now, you add more service. Bus bunching is not a satisfactory reason for not making a route change.

 

If the street can't handle any more buses, there are ways around that also like having JFK buses using Snyder where it parallels Church and is a two way street.

 

But the real reason why the B35 is so heavily utilized is because it is the only true east west route in the area. The B8 becomes a north south route in Borough Park and the B12 zig zags a lot so you have to go all the way to St Johns Place for another east west route.

 

There needs to be an east west route along Clarkson Avenue to take some of the load off the B35. I would restructure the B12 and other routes to accomplish that. But if you don't want to get that complicated, you can superimpose a new JFK route using Clarkson instead of Church until Rockaway Parkway and then to Linden Blvd with one stop at Cross Bay Blvd. Would you be in favor of that instead?

 

 

That snippet of mine should have read:

"....I don't have a second Brooklyn-JFK route as a priority in the grand scheme of things"

Well I don't know what else to tell you, as again, I'm not looking to argue/debate about this..... You got a couple of reasons in my last response about this B35 to JFK thing (since a simple disagreement wasn't enough for you)... Now it's (supposedly) nothing I've stated indicates a reason why it'd be a poor idea - but yet you're talking about restructuring the B12 & other routes to have a route run to JFK from this general section of the borough in response to the reasons I gave....

 

Someone who believes a dissenter is stating invalid reasons to their proposals don't offer compromises with them..... I'm just saying.

The proposal would stand on its own merit as one that is plausible & sensical.....

 

As for said compromise, you're missing a small piece of information...

Superimpose a new JFK route using Clarkson instead of Church, etc. etc.... With the terminal on the Brooklyn side being, what.....

[B35 via Church]

I think both the 35 and the 8 should just be extended a few blocks to Junius (which recently got a new little shopping plaza) for the connection to the . Create a little transit hub there, and then it should be no problem for B5 riders to transfer to the 15 get to JFK.

There's no problem for B35 riders now, that are seeking the B15 to get to JFK....

 

The B14 connects to the on Junius. No need for any additional extensions. Bad enough both routes travel a pretty distance. So extending further into Brownsville is not the best logical sense. Unless u can state a good case otherwise. No need for the extension.

I would like for the B35 to get extended to the , but it's not all too feasible to end buses over there.... So I'd leave the B35 where it is....

With the B8, I agree with you 100%; that is the last route I would look to want to extend - it's enough that it ends on Rockaway as it is....

 

The B14 runs no where near New Lots though.... He's talking about that shopping plaza (that really only sees any real activity for the Dollar Tree) over on New Lots/Junius....

[Eric B]

The B14 connects to the on Junius. No need for any additional extensions. Bad enough both routes travel a pretty distance. So extending further into Brownsville is not the best logical sense. Unless u can state a good case otherwise. No need for the extension.

The B14 doesn't go the same way the 8 and 35 do. It is very hard to get to Flatbush from the other end of Brooklyn (we end up going through Manhattan), and we're talking about an extension of only four blocks (which is a lot for walking for a transfer, but hardly anything for driving). Why have them end just short of a subway connection?

 

I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible to end them there. They would turn onto Junius and make the stop there, and then loop back.

[B35 via Church]

I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible to end them there. They would turn onto Junius and make the stop there, and then loop back.

Junius, for that one block, turns into a 2-way street b/w New Lots & Linden (well, Hegeman)....

 

The turning onto Junius from New Lots is obvious.... The question is, where would are all these buses take their layovers at?

Fact of the matter is, there are simply too many BPH on the B8 & B35 for any little transit hub to be created in that immediate area....

[Future ENY OP]

There's no problem for B35 riders now, that are seeking the B15 to get to JFK....

 

I would like for the B35 to get extended to the , but it's not all too feasible to end buses over there.... So I'd leave the B35 where it is....

With the B8, I agree with you 100%; that is the last route I would look to want to extend - it's enough that it ends on Rockaway as it is....

 

The B14 runs no where near New Lots though.... He's talking about that shopping plaza (that really only sees any real activity for the Dollar Tree) over on New Lots/Junius....

IF and only IF we were to extend the B35 to the on New Lots where do you terminate? Livonia and Penn? B/C at the station there's no room to terminate. My issue is if you extend further the best terminal would possibly be (WITH SPACE) is either Van Siclen and New Lots or Ashford with the B6 and B84 + train.

 

Thank You for the agreement on the B8. Thats is the last route I would want to extend. I don't know if my memory serves me correct did the B8 at one point end on Hegeman and Mother Gaston with the B35?

[Future ENY OP]

The B14 doesn't go the same way the 8 and 35 do. It is very hard to get to Flatbush from the other end of Brooklyn (we end up going through Manhattan), and we're talking about an extension of only four blocks (which is a lot for walking for a transfer, but hardly anything for driving). Why have them end just short of a subway connection?

 

I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible to end them there. They would turn onto Junius and make the stop there, and then loop back.

You are correct with the connection. I typed that too fast yesterday. However, now that got the picture of the location. Here's what i think should possibly happen. I would possibly extend the B35 to serve the shopping center and the on New Lots/Junius. Where do you think is the best layover for the B35. Check out my previous response on top to see what you think!

[B35 via Church]

IF and only IF we were to extend the B35 to the on New Lots where do you terminate? Livonia and Penn? B/C at the station there's no room to terminate. My issue is if you extend further the best terminal would possibly be (WITH SPACE) is either Van Siclen and New Lots or Ashford with the B6 and B84 + train.

 

Thank You for the agreement on the B8. Thats is the last route I would want to extend. I don't know if my memory serves me correct did the B8 at one point end on Hegeman and Mother Gaston with the B35?

A bit of a loaded question (you're pointing out the consensual issue at hand), as there's no where to end B35's at the directly....

 

As you've pointed out, it would have serve more of New Lots av - Which I don't think the B35 should be doing...

(this reminds of someone a long time ago on one of these forums, having the B35 end with the B6 at the , albeit for some other reason)

 

Yeah, the B8 is long winded enough as it is.... While I get wanting to serve Brookdale, I think it was overkill for the route specifically.... 

IDK, I don't remember the B8 ever ending with the B35... I remember when the only terminal over there was the Terminal Market, then they had [some buses (still) ending at the Terminal Market & some buses ending at Rockaway], and now of course, the full time terminal over there being Rockaway av....

 

What I've noticed with B8 riders emanating from the Brownsville end is that, there's a significant portion of that ridership only taking it to xfer to the B17 (the street layout does suck over there though).... Also, I will say that Linden > Church, to Remsen (current B8) is quicker than Hegeman || E. 98th > Church, to Remsen (current B35)....

 

You are correct with the connection. I typed that too fast yesterday. However, now that got the picture of the location. Here's what i think should possibly happen. I would possibly extend the B35 to serve the shopping center and the on New Lots/Junius. Where do you think is the best layover for the B35. Check out my previous response on top to see what you think!

Quite honestly, I think its ludicrous to extend the B35 for a dollar store & a burger king (that's really all Linden Plaza is right now).... If Linden Plaza was anything like Canarsie Plaza, then I could understand...... Wanting to extend it for a connection to the though is definitely reasonable.....

 

As for a layover spot over there, I'd like to hear an answer for that one also (not just from him, but from anyone).....

[bobtehpanda]

This is a very back-of-the-napkin proposal that isn't very serious, but since BrooklynBus mentioned a lack of strictly east west routes serving Brooklyn other than the B35, how would a route roughly following the B11 and B8 from 1 Av to Kings Hwy, then going to Canarsie do?

 

Alternatively, extending the B11 to Canarsie via the B6 and getting rid of the B6 locals.

[Future ENY OP]

This is a very back-of-the-napkin proposal that isn't very serious, but since BrooklynBus mentioned a lack of strictly east west routes serving Brooklyn other than the B35, how would a route roughly following the B11 and B8 from 1 Av to Kings Hwy, then going to Canarsie do?

 

Alternatively, extending the B11 to Canarsie via the B6 and getting rid of the B6 locals.

 

Once a upon of time the B11 did go to Canarsie via the B6 as a backup. It made the B11 actually longer than it is.

Now, if you want the B11 to extend to Canarsie and the possible way I see this going forward is to follow the 103 via Avenue H, than head straight on Glenwood. You really don't need B6's and B11's bunching with one another via Flatlands.

 

Again, I pose this question.. Where do you layover the B11's as the B6, B82, B42, and B60 share the same terminal. Only way I see is happening is that you have to restrict all turns with exception of buses on Rockaway Parkway, and restrict parking so that the B11 can have a share of the pie.. I know this simply b/c I frequent in Canarsie, and know the area well.

 

.... Thoughts.

[Future ENY OP]

All this extending current routes in the system like need to have several seats..

The NYC Transportation network is in a dire dismay, and needs total fixing.

The is really sitting on a gold mine with cash to create several NEW routes throughout the city.

However, when you get politics into the picture it creates clashes. You have a Democratic governor and mayor of this state and city at times can be in great odds simply because of their history in the federal government and among personal issues. Take these issues out the way. You hire ACTUAL road specialists who can do the work of creating such new bus routes to not only please the masses, but also to deal with the issues at hand.

 

.... New York needs to act like they are a blue state (Democratic) and stop acting like a red state (Republican)

 

... Just my $2.75 rant. Carry on.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

All this extending current routes in the system like need to have several seats..

The NYC Transportation network is in a dire dismay, and needs total fixing.

The is really sitting on a gold mine with cash to create several NEW routes throughout the city.

However, when you get politics into the picture it creates clashes. You have a Democratic governor and mayor of this state and city at times can be in great odds simply because of their history in the federal government and among personal issues. Take these issues out the way. You hire ACTUAL road specialists who can do the work of creating such new bus routes to not only please the masses, but also to deal with the issues at hand.

 

.... New York needs to act like they are a blue state (Democratic) and stop acting like a red state (Republican)

 

... Just my $2.75 rant. Carry on.

New routes where though? There are too many high ridership routes covering Brooklyn to mess with leaving only but so much territory to place these new routes. New routes being sprung up all over the place is what you see with immature bus networks, not a mature one being purposely mismanaged.

[bobtehpanda]

The is really sitting on a gold mine with cash to create several NEW routes throughout the city.

 

Really? Where?

[B35 via Church]

This is a very back-of-the-napkin proposal that isn't very serious, but since BrooklynBus mentioned a lack of strictly east west routes serving Brooklyn other than the B35, how would a route roughly following the B11 and B8 from 1 Av to Kings Hwy, then going to Canarsie do?

 

Alternatively, extending the B11 to Canarsie via the B6 and getting rid of the B6 locals.

Wouldn't solve anything.... The lack of east-west routes in this part of Brooklyn is largely due to the street layout itself....

 

A bus route running from the Army Terminal to Canarsie via the B11, B8 (to Kings Hwy), then making its way to the via the shortest possible routing from Kings Hwy/Av D to Canarsie would (still) be long as hell for no real good reason.... Hell, only people I can see benefiting from that are the Jews (who are the main ones making B11's longer (runtime-wise) than they have to be, thanks to their inconsiderate double parking along the already tight 49th/50th sts) in Borough Park & Parkville.... Virtually nobody east of Flatbush (av) would benefit from a route like that.... The current B8 works for the east-of-Flatbush riderbase I'm talking about, since it serves the VA Hospital....

 

I get that it's only a talking point, so I'll stop here... It's much more I could say why such a route like that wouldn't really address anything...

 

Future FLA already addressed your alternate talking point, and I happen to agree with his general point....

------

 

To BrooklynBus' point (outside of the whole JFK crap), an altering of the B12 could help with the east/west network around here.... However, the problem I have with a Clarkson av route though is, once it hits the , then what? Run it under the to head out to ENY? Have it supplement the B14 somehow? Turn it up to serve the same ENY av that the real B12 already does ....  Or would a route running b/w Parkside & Sutter or Saratoga be enough to justify it's own existence.....

 

I'm far more in favor of the current B12, than any straightening of it along Clarkson.... I see the B12 as an east/west route anyway, and that's exactly how it's used....

[B35 via Church]

All this extending current routes in the system like need to have several seats..

The NYC Transportation network is in a dire dismay, and needs total fixing.

The is really sitting on a gold mine with cash to create several NEW routes throughout the city.

However, when you get politics into the picture it creates clashes. You have a Democratic governor and mayor of this state and city at times can be in great odds simply because of their history in the federal government and among personal issues. Take these issues out the way. You hire ACTUAL road specialists who can do the work of creating such new bus routes to not only please the masses, but also to deal with the issues at hand.

 

.... New York needs to act like they are a blue state (Democratic) and stop acting like a red state (Republican)

 

... Just my $2.75 rant. Carry on.

Basically, the bus network is being neglected & needs restructuring (some would use the term, modernizing)....  I'm in total concurrence with that...

 

New routes where though? There are too many high ridership routes covering Brooklyn to mess with leaving only but so much territory to place these new routes. New routes being sprung up all over the place is what you see with immature bus networks, not a mature one being purposely mismanaged.

It's subjective, but I'd say there are a lot of moderately utilized routes in this borough....

 

Secondly, I don't get the sense he's talking about creating new routes on top of this unchanged, mismanaged ass network....

 

As for the statement in bold... Anyone that holds that viewpoint when it comes to the general network, I would chalk up to as being afraid of change.... This isn't about an underdeveloped bus network - Creating new routes by way of completely, or partially doing away with some of these routes (or portions of these routes) has squat to do with an immature bus network; the two (a mature bus network & the creation of new routes within it) can co-exist with one another....

 

There is simply too much coping (making-do) & settling going on, not just with transportation, but in many other facets of life in this day & age....

Edited December 11, 2016 by B35 via Church

[Eric B]

Junius, for that one block, turns into a 2-way street b/w New Lots & Linden (well, Hegeman)....

 

The turning onto Junius from New Lots is obvious.... The question is, where would are all these buses take their layovers at?

Fact of the matter is, there are simply too many BPH on the B8 & B35 for any little transit hub to be created in that immediate area....

Yeah, the B8 is long winded enough as it is.... While I get wanting to serve Brookdale, I think it was overkill for the route specifically.... 

 

Quite honestly, I think its ludicrous to extend the B35 for a dollar store & a burger king (that's really all Linden Plaza is right now).... If Linden Plaza was anything like Canarsie Plaza, then I could understand...... Wanting to extend it for a connection to the though is definitely reasonable.....

 

As for a layover spot over there, I'd like to hear an answer for that one also (not just from him, but from anyone).....

 

You would take the parking space on the street. Or, if necessary, make that block one way too (since the next street over, Powell is northbound as well), and the layovers could use the other side of the street.

 

OF course, the primary purpose of the idea is to connect with the . I mentioned the shopping area to contrast with the garages and ugly lots that were there before. It's more desirable as a transfer hub now, even though the shopping plaza itself isn't all that much.

Again, regarding the 8, we're only talking four blocks. So if it goes that close, it might as well connect. It could make an easier connection to further into Flatbush and the rest of Brooklyn.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Eric B

[B22viaAtlanticAv]

@Eric B you keep on saying " its only four Blocks" maybe for the B35 from Mother Gastonia but not the B8. You got to Remember the B8 is the equivalent of the (3)train from Rockaway to Van Sinderen/(L) thats extra driving that some people walk when the B15 is acting up, the B8 driver got it bad enough.

[Fresh Pond]

IF and only IF we were to extend the B35 to the on New Lots where do you terminate? Livonia and Penn? B/C at the station there's no room to terminate. My issue is if you extend further the best terminal would possibly be (WITH SPACE) is either Van Siclen and New Lots or Ashford with the B6 and B84 + train.

 

Thank You for the agreement on the B8. Thats is the last route I would want to extend. I don't know if my memory serves me correct did the B8 at one point end on Hegeman and Mother Gaston with the B35?

The B8 ended at the terminal market at first, then got an extension to Brookdale Hospital. It looped around via Rockaway Pkwy, Church, E.98 (terminal), Hegeman, Amboy, and back onto Linden.

 

It got extended to Rockaway Av somewhere in the early 2000s.