Queens Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[qjtransitmaster]

Funny, could've sworn that more than one rider does this. Heck, Q43LTD himself might not even do this, so to say that this is selfish

 

 

It sounds like you need a walkthrough on what duplication of service is in the context of transit.

 

In most cases, duplication means "making an exact copy". This is not what it means in transit.

 

Running multiple routes down the same street is not duplicative. Multiple bus routes on the same street serve as lower-frequency branches of a main, higher-frequency trunk route, much as the , , , and can all be thought of as branches of the Sixth Avenue Line. This is a good thing - multiple points can be reached from the same bus stop, and on the high-frequency trunk, service is very high - missing the 111 to Jamaica isn't a big deal, because there's a 113 local right behind it. This is what the current pattern of service on Guy R Brewer and 147th is like.

 

Running multiple routes down closely parallel streets is duplicative. It's bad - instead of one big frequent trunk route, you've got a lot of lower-frequency routes. Say you live between two imaginary streets - First Street and Second Street. There are two parallel bus routes going to the same destination, and both routes run every fifteen minutes. There is no bus tracking app, and even if there was, you don't own a smartphone to see where the buses are. So what do you do? First or Second? You walk down to First, but as you reach the intersection, you hear a sound, and turn around. The bus on Second just arrived. Too late to run back to Second to catch that bus, so you end up having to wait longer.

 

Parallel routes destroy other routes' ridership, reduce frequency on other routes, create more complexity, and make passengers' lives worse. For example, let's take the bus on Park Avenue you proposed on another thread. It's not going to become a very busy route - routes on Madison and Lexington are much more frequent, and there's a subway very close by. However, there are some people who do take the route, and ridership on Park starts climbing, but never to very high levels. Where did these riders come from? They're certainly not new - Park Avenue is mostly inhabited by snobbish people too good to take the bus, so these riders came from other routes. A decline in bus ridership is soon noticed on Madison and Lexington. MTA, being the chronically poor agency that it is, decides to cut service on these routes, and bus ridership suffers further due to reduced frequency.

 

What happened, you might ask? Well, the pool of transit riders in New York is limited, especially in Manhattan, since nearly everyone who can and wants to takes transit already. Before your Park Avenue route was created, the pool of riders was divided between two sets of bus routes - those on Madison and those on Lexington. After, the pool of riders is divided between three bus routes - each route now has 66% of what the previous routes had before. Bus frequencies are cut to meet this "reduced" demand, which results in further declines in bus ridership. The vicious cycle goes on, and why? Because you didn't think that people could be bothered to walk two blocks to very frequent bus service.

 

Don't throw around the word "duplicative" like you know what it means in the transit context, because you really don't.

 

 

 

So we can't say that we live next to such-and-such route because using a bus route that you'd like to change makes us selfish?

Trunk routes work best in urban areas and not so well in suburban areas with a few exceptions NJT 139 cough and yeah branching sucks hardcore. But in the cse of the subway it works on guy R brewer not so much Q111 is so frequent people don't wait for Q113 locals so much and rightfully so. I do admit he isn't good at duplicative. LI has many bus lines duplicating each other resulting in shit service all over except on a few corridors.

[NewFlyer 230]

Would the Q34 be considered a duplicate of the Q25 as ridership past Flushing is not that high and it only runs weekdays only. To be honest I think the Q34 should be eliminated. This will get more riders on the Q15 and Q20/Q44 and this will boost the Q25 ridership and decrease the confusion people have. Many times people don't know if the Q34 go to either Main Street or even Jamaica Ave and people sometimes pass it up for the Q25. I think the Q25 will do good on its own and a Q34 elimination isn't losing much of anything.

Edited July 23, 2013 by College Pt Man

[qjtransitmaster]

Would the Q34 be considered a duplicate of the Q25 as ridership past Flushing is not that high and it only runs weekdays only. To be honest I think the Q34 should be eliminated. This will get more riders on the Q15 and Q20/Q44 and this will boost the Q25 ridership and decrease the confusion people have. Many times people don't know if the Q34 go to either Main Street or even Jamaica Ave and people sometimes pass it up for the Q25. I think the Q25 will do good on its own and a Q34 elimination isn't losing much of anything.

Or merge Q15a with Q34 or extend Q34 to bay terrace via Qm20's routing. As it is now it is useless.

[Q43LTD]

Or merge Q15a with Q34 or extend Q34 to bay terrace via Qm20's routing. As it is now it is useless.

Yeah how about no. There's no demand for Jamaica to Bay Terrace access. Try again. Or Jamaica to Beechhurst for that matter. Edited July 23, 2013 by Q43LTD

[Astoria Line]

Or merge Q15a with Q34 or extend Q34 to bay terrace via Qm20's routing. As it is now it is useless.

 What's your obsession with making current routes extra long and unnecessary?

[bobtehpanda]

How bout shifting 34 service to the Q15 route south of the Cross Island via Northern and 150th? (I'm not exactly sure where you would terminate it.)

[Q43LTD]

What's wrong with reviving the old Q14?

[Q90]

How bout shifting 34 service to the Q15 route south of the Cross Island via Northern and 150th? (I'm not exactly sure where you would terminate it.)

How about eliminate the Q34 as it is redundant to the Q25 and increase the Q25s headways and put LTDs on the Q25 on weekends. Also increase headways on the Q15 because seriously half an hour headways makes the route unreliable.

 

What's wrong with reviving the old Q14?

It actually is an exact duplicate of the Q15. Better just increase those damn half hour headways on the Q15.

[bobtehpanda]

How about eliminate the Q34 as it is redundant to the Q25 and increase the Q25s headways and put LTDs on the Q25 on weekends. Also increase headways on the Q15 because seriously half an hour headways makes the route unreliable.

 

It seems you didn't read any of my previous response to your "duplication" assertions.

 

The Q34 is not redundant, it is complementary. It provides local service, and the Q25 provides limited service. The Q34 also allows people on Kissena and Parsons to reach a different part of Queens. More importantly, this branch is well utilized, because some Q34 buses run between Whitestone and Main St only.

 

Also, headways have nothing to do with bus reliability. If you add two more buses an hour on an unreliable route, that just makes two additional buses run an unreliable schedule.

[Q90]

It seems you didn't read any of my previous response to your "duplication" assertions.

 

The Q34 is not redundant, it is complementary. It provides local service, and the Q25 provides limited service. The Q34 also allows people on Kissena and Parsons to reach a different part of Queens. More importantly, this branch is well utilized, because some Q34 buses run between Whitestone and Main St only.

 

Also, headways have nothing to do with bus reliability. If you add two more buses an hour on an unreliable route, that just makes two additional buses run an unreliable schedule.

I did read what you told me about duplication but when I said the Q34 was redundant, I meant it wasn't important. Redundant and duplicate don't exactly mean the same thing. And tell me, how much usage does the Q34 get when it isn't sharing it's route with the Q25? If it doesn't get a lot, then consolidating it with the Q25 is a good option. Also not all Q25s are limiteds when the Q34 runs. Q34 can burn for all I care lol.

[bobtehpanda]

I did read what you told me about duplication but when I said the Q34 was redundant, I meant it wasn't important.

 

You're implying it is redundant because it follows the Q25, which you would have said previously "duplicates" the route.

 

And tell me, how much usage does the Q34 get when it isn't sharing it's route with the Q25?

 

Enough to warrant service every 12 minutes throughout the day, and every 10 minutes or better during the peak periods.

 

 

Q34 can burn for all I care lol.

 

Well it's a good thing you're not an MTA planner, eh?

Edited July 24, 2013 by bobtehpanda

[NewFlyer 230]

It seems you didn't read any of my previous response to your "duplication" assertions.

 

The Q34 is not redundant, it is complementary. It provides local service, and the Q25 provides limited service. The Q34 also allows people on Kissena and Parsons to reach a different part of Queens. More importantly, this branch is well utilized, because some Q34 buses run between Whitestone and Main St only.

 

Also, headways have nothing to do with bus reliability. If you add two more buses an hour on an unreliable route, that just makes two additional buses run an unreliable schedule.

Actually the Q34 is my home route and it could be eliminated without effecting a lot of people. The Q15A should serve that branch of the Q34 and then continue normal Q15 route with no 10 Ave service. Instead of 10 Ave it will run via 154st.

[NewFlyer 230]

You're implying it is redundant because it follows the Q25, which you would have said previously "duplicates" the route.

 

 

Enough to warrant service every 12 minutes throughout the day, and every 10 minutes or better during the peak periods.

 

 

 

Well it's a good thing you're not an MTA planner, eh?

Hahaha 12 minutes really the Q34 runs every 24 to 20 minutes during rush hour on Kissena Blvd. It only runs 12 minutes during 10AM-3PM and from 7:00PM-8:30PM so how many people is really being effected and all Q25's put in place can Say Flushing Main Sta via Kissena Blvd where it can connect to another route.

[bobtehpanda]

Hahaha 12 minutes really the Q34 runs every 24 to 20 minutes during rush hour on Kissena Blvd. It only runs 12 minutes during 10AM-3PM and from 7:00PM-8:30PM so how many people is really being effected and all Q25's put in place can Say Flushing Main Sta via Kissena Blvd where it can connect to another route.

 

Really? Because this schedule shows a bus leaving Whitestone every 12 minutes at noon on a weekday. Many of these buses do not go all the way to Jamaica and terminate in Flushing, but that is still 12 minute service on the Whitestone branch of the Kissena routes.

[NewFlyer 230]

Really? Because this schedule shows a bus leaving Whitestone every 12 minutes at noon on a weekday. Many of these buses do not go all the way to Jamaica and terminate in Flushing, but that is still 12 minute service on the Whitestone branch of the Kissena routes.

I know it runs every 12 minutes at noon but that's when they go to Jamaica. Rush hours its every 20 to 24 minutes when the Q34 goes to Jamaica and when it starts from Flushing its only 10 to 12 minutes.

[Fresh Pond]

It seems you didn't read any of my previous response to your "duplication" assertions.

 

The Q34 is not redundant, it is complementary. It provides local service, and the Q25 provides limited service. The Q34 also allows people on Kissena and Parsons to reach a different part of Queens. More importantly, this branch is well utilized, because some Q34 buses run between Whitestone and Main St only.

 

Also, headways have nothing to do with bus reliability. If you add two more buses an hour on an unreliable route, that just makes two additional buses run an unreliable schedule.

Exactly...the Q25/34 relationship is just like the Bx2 is to the Bx1, and how the Q20A/B is to the Q44, and how the Q11/21 is to the Q52/53

[Q43LTD]

I don't think the Q14 "duplicated" the 15.

[qjtransitmaster]

Exactly...the Q25/34 relationship is just like the Bx2 is to the Bx1, and how the Q20A/B is to the Q44, and how the Q11/21 is to the Q52/53

Dude those lines are locals and their LTD stop versions Q25 is not 100% LTD like Q44, Bx1 & Q52/53 unlike the examples you gave Q25 LTD is rush hour only.

[Fresh Pond]

Dude those lines are locals and their LTD stop versions Q25 is not 100% LTD like Q44, Bx1 & Q52/53 unlike the examples you gave Q25 LTD is rush hour only.

Its still the same thing. The 25 can't do it on its own so that's why the 34 is there

[NewFlyer 230]

I don't think the Q14 "duplicated" the 15.

It did part of its route I really think the Q14 should of stayed and had the Q14 rerouted via Linden Pl and 28 Ave to Flushing. The Q34 is not really needed as people usually get off in Flushing. The people riding past going to Whitestone get off along Linden Pl and at Union St.

Edited July 24, 2013 by College Pt Man

[bobtehpanda]

It did part of its route I really think the Q14 should of stayed and had the Q14 rerouted via Linden Pl and 28 Ave to Flushing. The Q34 is not really needed as people usually get off in Flushing. The people riding past going to Whitestone get off along Linden Pl and at Union St.

 

If this was true (most people only ride on Kissena and not on the Whitestone segment), then why is the MTA scheduling more frequency on the Whitestone portion than the Kissena portion? The MTA cuts service if there's even a hint of underutilization. Unless the route is in Staten Island, of course.

 

If anything, the current service levels suggest that most people are using the Q34 to get from Whitestone to Flushing, and fewer riders on the Kissena Blvd portion of the Q34. There's no way to really check since the MTA doesn't do per-stop ridership calculations (although they could now with the advent of BusTime), but this seems to be what the MTA is experiencing, since they're very finicky about this sort of thing.

[qjtransitmaster]

If this was true (most people only ride on Kissena and not on the Whitestone segment), then why is the MTA scheduling more frequency on the Whitestone portion than the Kissena portion? The MTA cuts service if there's even a hint of underutilization. Unless the route is in Staten Island, of course.

 

If anything, the current service levels suggest that most people are using the Q34 to get from Whitestone to Flushing, and fewer riders on the Kissena Blvd portion of the Q34. There's no way to really check since the MTA doesn't do per-stop ridership calculations (although they could now with the advent of BusTime), but this seems to be what the MTA is experiencing, since they're very finicky about this sort of thing.

LOL about staten island dude.

 

Its still the same thing. The 25 can't do it on its own so that's why the 34 is there

to be honest I think Q34 should be combined with either Q14A or extended via willets point blvd to bay terrace.

[NewFlyer 230]

The Q34 makes it hard for the to increase service on the Q25 even if those buses have to only run to Flushing Main Street. The Q25 is very busy and it needs more LTD especially on Saturdays. With the Q34 running behind the Q25 and eventually in front it steals the Q25's riders and then the is like oh it doesn't need any improvements. With the Q25 alone it will give the a chance to see how well the Q25 does and maybe we can have service similar to the Q10 or Q111/Q113 where the LTD runs all day and everyday.

Edited July 25, 2013 by College Pt Man

[Q90]

LOL about staten island dude.

to be honest I think Q34 should be combined with either Q14A or extended via willets point blvd to bay terrace.

I'd go with extension via Willets Point and truncate it to Flushing. No need to run Q34 to Jamaica since you could just boost the Q25 (Q34 has horrible headways to Jamaica anyways). And for the correction it's Q15A and it ain't merging with any route.

[NewFlyer 230]

I'd go with extension via Willets Point and truncate it to Flushing. No need to run Q34 to Jamaica since you could just boost the Q25 (Q34 has horrible headways to Jamaica anyways). And for the correction it's Q15A and it ain't merging with any route.

Finally someone else agrees if only the read SOME of our suggestions.

Edited July 25, 2013 by College Pt Man