Random Thoughts Thread - Nassau Inter-County Express (NICE)

[NewFlyer 230]

17 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

 

 

 

Yuck, I'd rather them buy used REAL buses than use a damn cutaway van on the N22. If they struggling to make service then maybe NICE should consider buying some MTA 6500s until they receive new buses. MTA gave the PBL hand me down RTS's BEFORE the takeover happened. I remember riding them on the Q40 which was a Green Lines route. If not the MTA then maybe some other transit agency recently retired buses.

Nassau County uses CNG buses so buying the 6500s wouldn’t be an option. I’m just surprised they have to resort to using these little access a ride like vans being that every time you turn around some type of service is getting cut. Then again I don’t know how many of NICE’s buses are out of service because maintenance isn’t Nassau’s strong suit. At least back then when the MTA was running things the buses could head to city and get a quality fix up at one of the MTA depots. I remember right before the MTA ceased operations of Long Island Bus a whole bunch of MTA Bus Orion V CNG’s had to go to Nassau so that a bunch of their buses could get fixed up. So if it was bad then I can only imagine how it is now. 

[trainfan22]

25 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Nassau County uses CNG buses so buying the 6500s wouldn’t be an option. I’m just surprised they have to resort to using these little access a ride like vans being that every time you turn around some type of service is getting cut. Then again I don’t know how many of NICE’s buses are out of service because maintenance isn’t Nassau’s strong suit. At least back then when the MTA was running things the buses could head to city and get a quality fix up at one of the MTA depots. I remember right before the MTA ceased operations of Long Island Bus a whole bunch of MTA Bus Orion V CNG’s had to go to Nassau so that a bunch of their buses could get fixed up. So if it was bad then I can only imagine how it is now. 

 I think those cutaway vans use diesel fuel, so NICE can fuel diesel buses. They also had MCIs when it was still LIB for LIRR shuttle use.

[NewFlyer 230]

1 hour ago, trainfan22 said:

 I think those cutaway vans use diesel fuel, so NICE can fuel diesel buses. They also had MCIs when it was still LIB for LIRR shuttle use.

I don’t know where NICE can get buses from if they need more. They probably should have ordered more XN60’s for the N6 to bump more standards to other lines. NICE needs more funding, because I bet they have a bunch of buses right now that are probably out of service. 

[danielhg121]

They're installing these tablet-shaped devices on top of the operator that list all the stops and their runs. It's kinda neat, it lists all the stops and the following stops and also the next run, when to deadhead, pull-in and this is separate from the clever device monitor sitting next to the farebox.

-----------------------------------------------------

I was riding the 10PM N20H/G (interlined) from Hicksville and the bus was early so the driver had to pull over at some stops and wait the time out. During the whole run, the operator kept pressing the accelerator and the brake immediately after, similar to the same feeling that you get when riding the MTA OG hybrids. The engine definitely didn't like it though and I think the bus wasn't shifting properly on the flat roads later. It was #1748 I believe, bus definitely has seen better days. Also caught #1752 out and it had a clean (maybe new) back engine panel that seemed out of place.

[Q101 E Midtown]

1 hour ago, danielhg121 said:

They're installing these tablet-shaped devices on top of the operator that list all the stops and their runs. It's kinda neat, it lists all the stops and the following stops and also the next run, when to deadhead, pull-in and this is separate from the clever device monitor sitting next to the farebox.

-----------------------------------------------------

I was riding the 10PM N20H/G (interlined) from Hicksville and the bus was early so the driver had to pull over at some stops and wait the time out. During the whole run, the operator kept pressing the accelerator and the brake immediately after, similar to the same feeling that you get when riding the MTA OG hybrids. The engine definitely didn't like it though and I think the bus wasn't shifting properly on the flat roads later. It was #1748 I believe, bus definitely has seen better days. Also caught #1752 out and it had a clean (maybe new) back engine panel that seemed out of place.

The 1700 series were never comfortable rides.

[FamousNYLover]

Ill rather have direct n20, n22 and n24 buses back way it was before split route.

[Mtatransit]

On 10/31/2020 at 12:02 AM, FamousNYLover said:

Ill rather have direct n20, n22 and n24 buses back way it was before split route.

I disagree. Especially for the n20. I remember the old n20. That route was routinely 30 minutes late. I remember one time, it was so bad that it BUNCHED on ONE HOUR HEADWAY out of Hicksville. Ever since the route was split, the service became much more reliable.

I don't know about n22/24 and how it is performing. 

 

Regarding the minibus on n22. It isn't a permanent thing. Bus probably broke down, and instead of missing a run, NICE sent out a minibus instead. 

[Lex]

2 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

I disagree. Especially for the n20. I remember the old n20. That route was routinely 30 minutes late. I remember one time, it was so bad that it BUNCHED on ONE HOUR HEADWAY out of Hicksville. Ever since the route was split, the service became much more reliable.

Is this exclusive to the Veolia/Transdev era, or did the MTA also have this issue?

[FamousNYLover]

3 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

I disagree. Especially for the n20. I remember the old n20. That route was routinely 30 minutes late. I remember one time, it was so bad that it BUNCHED on ONE HOUR HEADWAY out of Hicksville. Ever since the route was split, the service became much more reliable.

I don't know about n22/24 and how it is performing. 

 

Regarding the minibus on n22. It isn't a permanent thing. Bus probably broke down, and instead of missing a run, NICE sent out a minibus instead. 

Not for people going between Hicksville and Flushing. n20H lost lots of customers due to split. Crossing guard at Americana Mall Manhasett want direct n20 bus back because split route is hurting their business.

[danielhg121]

I actually remember when the N20 carried past Great Neck, it was about 3/4 of the seats give or take. Nowadays, you'll get 10 passengers or less for the entire stretch to Hicksville and this was pre-pandemic. Constantly putting up with the n20H's half-assed service and everyone being forced to get off to continue their journey, it's not rocket science as to why the line underperforms significantly. During rush hours, the n20G has more service than the n20H, it wouldn't kill them to implement some straight trips especially when a good chunk get off at Middle Neck Rd just to walk across the street to catch the n20G. 

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, FamousNYLover said:

n20H lost lots of customers due to split. Crossing guard at Americana Mall Manhasett want direct n20 bus back because split route is hurting their business.

1st part is true... 2nd part, ehh - sounds made up to me... You don't even need to resort to fabrications or embellishments to convey how poorly the n20H is performing....

3 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

I actually remember when the N20 carried past Great Neck, it was about 3/4 of the seats give or take. Nowadays, you'll get 10 passengers or less for the entire stretch to Hicksville and this was pre-pandemic. Constantly putting up with the n20H's half-assed service and everyone being forced to get off to continue their journey, it's not rocket science as to why the line underperforms significantly. During rush hours, the n20G has more service than the n20H, it wouldn't kill them to implement some straight trips especially when a good chunk get off at Middle Neck Rd just to walk across the street to catch the n20G. 

This.

I also remember when the n20 used to leave Hicksville crushloaded, and a good chunk of those riders would still be on the bus past Great Neck, heading towards Queens.... I'd rather have the old n20 back also.... You would think the connections (b/w the n20G & n20H) would be timely, but they simply aren't.... This split plan was an underhanded way of cutting service past Great Neck..... The n20g stint may be more reliable, but the n20H runs like garbage (and AFAIC, that is by design)..... The n20H is nothing more than a shorter version of how the old n20 (pre-split) used to run, in terms of reliability.... Those buses have no real reason to be late (with the n20G doing the grunt of the work, as far as passenger activity is concerned) & they still end up being late somehow.... If anything, the damn n21 connects better with the n20G than the n20H does....

Edited November 1, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Mtatransit]

13 hours ago, Lex said:

Is this exclusive to the Veolia/Transdev era, or did the MTA also have this issue?

Most of my riding experience was during Veolia's time so I can't say much here. The last few months of LIB, however I don't think it was better when it comes to reliability/missing runs.  I do know that LIB had more buses heading out to Roslyn Clock Tower/Mineola Avenue. Essentially Roslyn lost service under NICE.

But until the split, the n20 under NICE was horrible. Not only were runs overcrowded, they were also very late. 

Now, the crowd is gone, but the service reliability has definitely gone up.

11 hours ago, FamousNYLover said:

Not for people going between Hicksville and Flushing. n20H lost lots of customers due to split. Crossing guard at Americana Mall Manhasett want direct n20 bus back because split route is hurting their business.

No doubt the n20H lost customers. During rush hours back then, the n20L used to be crush loaded by the time service left Glen Cove Road. I don't see that kind of crowds anymore along that portion of the route. 

Passengers do seem to be more savvy in transferring however. You see much more people transferring at Middle County Rd/Northern Blvd

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I also remember when the n20 used to leave Hicksville crushloaded, and a good chunk of those riders would still be on the bus past Great Neck, heading towards Queens.... I'd rather have the old n20 back also.... You would think the connections (b/w the n20G & n20H) would be timely, but they simply aren't.... This split plan was an underhanded way of cutting service past Great Neck..... The n20g stint may be more reliable, but the n20H runs like garbage (and AFAIC, that is by design)..... The n20H is nothing more than a shorter version of how the old n20 (pre-split) used to run, in terms of reliability.... Those buses have no real reason to be late (with the n20G doing the grunt of the work, as far as passenger activity is concerned) & they still end up being late somehow.... If anything, the damn n21 connects better with the n20G than the n20H does....

There was significant ridership on the old n20L between Glen Cove Rd and Queens. From my experience, we would leave Hicksville with a full seated load, and by the time we got to Americana Manhasset, the bus will be absolutely packed. That is no longer the case today (pre-pandemic). The bus still carries a full seat load, but the crowds the n20L receive is becoming more and more rare. 

I believe Hicksville also received additional service after the split.

In terms of reliability on the n20h, the buses was pretty reliable to me. It does run 10-20 min late into Great Neck sometimes however causing the entire bus to miss their connection. Now this isn't a issue during the day when the 20G is frequent. However the night, especially when the 20G becomes every 30 minutes, now you have close to two buses and some packed onto one 20G.

I do think some form of n20L should be brought back during rush hours, and the n20H should be interlined with the n20G when service on the 20G segment is infrequent (nights). But I think during the day, the service works fine. The connections could be better timed though I agree.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Mtatransit

[FamousNYLover]

Also some people are getting off at Northern/Middle Neck Rd, so they don't mess bus.

Everyone had to cross on red light just to catch connecting bus at most dangerous busy intersection.

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by FamousNYLover

[FamousNYLover]

19 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

day

 

19 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Most of my riding experience was during Veolia's time so I can't say much here. The last few months of LIB, however I don't think it was better when it comes to reliability/missing runs.  I do know that LIB had more buses heading out to Roslyn Clock Tower/Mineola Avenue. Essentially Roslyn lost service under NICE.

But until the split, the n20 under NICE was horrible. Not only were runs overcrowded, they were also very late. 

Now, the crowd is gone, but the service reliability has definitely gone up.

No doubt the n20H lost customers. During rush hours back then, the n20L used to be crush loaded by the time service left Glen Cove Road. I don't see that kind of crowds anymore along that portion of the route. 

Passengers do seem to be more savvy in transferring however. You see much more people transferring at Middle County Rd/Northern Blvd

There was significant ridership on the old n20L between Glen Cove Rd and Queens. From my experience, we would leave Hicksville with a full seated load, and by the time we got to Americana Manhasset, the bus will be absolutely packed. That is no longer the case today (pre-pandemic). The bus still carries a full seat load, but the crowds the n20L receive is becoming more and more rare. 

I believe Hicksville also received additional service after the split.

In terms of reliability on the n20h, the buses was pretty reliable to me. It does run 10-20 min late into Great Neck sometimes however causing the entire bus to miss their connection. Now this isn't a issue during the day when the 20G is frequent. However the night, especially when the 20G becomes every 30 minutes, now you have close to two buses and some packed onto one 20G.

I do think some form of n20L should be brought back during rush hours, and the n20H should be interlined with the n20G when service on the 20G segment is infrequent (nights). But I think during the day, the service works fine. The connections could be better timed though I agree.

There are some trips that are interline.

on weekdays, many evening trips interline.

When I used to go to Jericho Whole Food on weekdays, I always take 20:17 n20H Great Neck since this bus becomes 21:20 n20G Flushing. Depends on Transdev driver, some drivers might let passenger stay on bus. I think right now, it's properly 20:10pm n20H weekday bus becomes 21:20pm n20G.

[danielhg121]

33 minutes ago, FamousNYLover said:

 

There are some trips that are interline.

on weekdays, many evening trips interline.

When I used to go to Jericho Whole Food on weekdays, I always take 20:17 n20H Great Neck since this bus becomes 21:20 n20G Flushing. Depends on Transdev driver, some drivers might let passenger stay on bus. I think right now, it's properly 20:10pm n20H weekday bus becomes 21:20pm n20G.

Yea, the 8:40 bus deadheads back to the depot after it's run. After that one, the 9:10 and 10PM both interline and do the n20G as well. Worst part about taking the 8:40 is that you have to wait 15 mins for the n20G and by that point, the 9:10PM n20H has shown up at Middle Neck. 

[NewFlyer 230]

Did the N21 have the same unreliability issue as the N20 before the N21 was cut back and the N20 was split?

I am unfamiliar with the buses over there but what if Nice were to extend the N21 back to Flushing, would it help? 

 

[danielhg121]

29 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Did the N21 have the same unreliability issue as the N20 before the N21 was cut back and the N20 was split?

I am unfamiliar with the buses over there but what if Nice were to extend the N21 back to Flushing, would it help? 

I don't think the N21 ever carried, at least I've never seen a crushloaded N21 back when it used to serve Flushing and I roamed those areas quite often. The frequency was lackluster compared to the N20 and I don't think there was significant demand for travel between Glen Cove and Flushing. It was definitely treated like the red-headed stepchild. NICE also slowly chipped away at it's frequency, made it a rush hour route and then just cut it at Great Neck as well. I've seen the morning n21 buses leave Great Neck and they carry maybe less than 10 passengers and I can't imagine it picking up any more riders after. The morning n21 to Great Neck did have a decent load though so there is a ridership base, probably riders getting to the LIRR or points north of Great Neck. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by danielhg121

[NewFlyer 230]

16 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

I don't think the N21 ever carried, at least I've never seen a crushloaded N21 back when it used to serve Flushing and I roamed those areas quite often. The frequency was lackluster compared to the N20 and I don't think there was significant demand for travel between Glen Cove and Flushing. It was definitely treated like the red-headed stepchild. NICE also slowly chipped away at it's frequency, made it a rush hour route and then just cut it at Great Neck as well. I've seen the morning n21 buses leave Great Neck and they carry maybe less than 10 passengers and I can't imagine it picking up any more riders after. The morning n21 to Great Neck did have a decent load though so there is a ridership base, probably riders getting to the LIRR or points north of Great Neck. 

I was looking at a N20/21 schedule from 2009 and I actually didn’t know the N21 had limited stop service. 
Also I noticed that the N20 had a lot of short turns at Roslyn. 
I do think they should bring some type of service from points out East to Flushing but maybe in the form of a N20X that basically would be the old LTD. Or if they don’t do that perhaps create an N20R service that short turns at Roslyn to restore some type of Queens service along Northern Blvd in Nassau. 

[Mtatransit]

1 hour ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I was looking at a N20/21 schedule from 2009 and I actually didn’t know the N21 had limited stop service. 
Also I noticed that the N20 had a lot of short turns at Roslyn. 
I do think they should bring some type of service from points out East to Flushing but maybe in the form of a N20X that basically would be the old LTD. Or if they don’t do that perhaps create an N20R service that short turns at Roslyn to restore some type of Queens service along Northern Blvd in Nassau. 

Back then under LIB, there wasn't actually that many short trips at Great Neck. Most of the service continued onto either Mineola Avenue or Roslyn Clock Tower. 

N21 Limited? Interesting, I didn't know about that

[B35 via Church]

On 11/1/2020 at 6:51 AM, Lex said:

On 11/1/2020 at 4:25 AM, Mtatransit said:

I disagree. Especially for the n20. I remember the old n20. That route was routinely 30 minutes late. I remember one time, it was so bad that it BUNCHED on ONE HOUR HEADWAY out of Hicksville. Ever since the route was split, the service became much more reliable.

Is this exclusive to the Veolia/Transdev era, or did the MTA also have this issue?

Generally speaking, it was also an issue with the N20... However, the magnitude of it was amplified with the n20.

On 11/1/2020 at 7:54 PM, Mtatransit said:

There was significant ridership on the old n20L between Glen Cove Rd and Queens. From my experience, we would leave Hicksville with a full seated load, and by the time we got to Americana Manhasset, the bus will be absolutely packed. That is no longer the case today (pre-pandemic). The bus still carries a full seat load, but the crowds the n20L receive is becoming more and more rare. 

I believe Hicksville also received additional service after the split.

In terms of reliability on the n20h, the buses was pretty reliable to me. It does run 10-20 min late into Great Neck sometimes however causing the entire bus to miss their connection. Now this isn't a issue during the day when the 20G is frequent. However the night, especially when the 20G becomes every 30 minutes, now you have close to two buses and some packed onto one 20G.

I do think some form of n20L should be brought back during rush hours, and the n20H should be interlined with the n20G when service on the 20G segment is infrequent (nights). But I think during the day, the service works fine. The connections could be better timed though I agree.

Aside from anything involving the crisis & aside from anything involving malls (in general) not being patronized the way they used to, the level of crowding's slowly dissipated because the quality of service has been decimated - Not to mention people aren't really all that fond of now having to xfer b/w buses for the exact same commute, when the previous setup had commuters remaining on the one bus.... It's little shit like that, that slowly drives people away from utilizing mass transit.... You'd be surprised how many people absolutely abhor the idea of transferring.... While there are a lot of people seeking Great Neck from Queens, NICE IMO underrated (or refused to accept; as in, ignoring) the amount of people (as you alluded to) not necessarily swinging all the way out to Hicksville, but taking buses as far as Greenvale....

THAT was the problem I personally had w/ the Roslyn short turns; they just fell... Short.

Anyway, it seems to me that n20H drivers crawl the route & take longer breaks at Great Neck & Hicksville than they're (probably) supposed to.... The n20H should, in theory, be more reliable than what they are.... It doesn't have the choke points (or w/e you wanna call it) that the n20G has... Speaking of which (and this may be the unpopular opinion, but), I'm of the belief that (one reason) the n20G has the reliability issues that it does, is simply because it takes Sanford to get to/from Flushing.... What you mentioned earlier about buses routinely being 30 mins. late & what not, the paralleling of it w/ the Q12 b/w the county line & Flushing definitely attributed/tes to that.... That isn't just a NICE thing obviously, because the N20 also/always took Sanford too....

Now I'm not trying to implicate that the n20 should be brought back to have every trip run b/w Flushing & Hicksville, but this whole n20G/n20H split bit is flawed AFAIC... They can still have some trips ending at Great Neck & some ending at Greenvale RR or something (instead of Roslyn clock tower... that extra 5-7 minutes would not have killed them, to have helped as many people that were seeking N27's/n27's from off the N20/n20).... That way, riders won't have to endure/engage in that BS phenomenon that @FamousNYLover brought up, where people are getting off the n20G/n20H at Middle Neck/Northern so they won't (or reduce their chances of) miss their connection.....

On 11/2/2020 at 3:48 PM, FamousNYLover said:

Also some people are getting off at Northern/Middle Neck Rd, so they don't mess bus.

Everyone had to cross on red light just to catch connecting bus at most dangerous busy intersection.

**youtube video**

Yeah, most people xferring between the n20G & n20H are doing that, because the connections are not timed at the RR station....

On 11/2/2020 at 8:37 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

Did the N21 have the same unreliability issue as the N20 before the N21 was cut back and the N20 was split?

I am unfamiliar with the buses over there but what if Nice were to extend the N21 back to Flushing, would it help?

1] Why wouldn't it have? It had the same exact routing in & out of Queens as the N20 did, up until Roslyn.....

....now if you're asking if the N21 north of Roslyn was as unreliable as the N20 east of Roslyn, well then no..... From Queens, for a good portion of riders, all the N21 was, was supplemental N20 service...

* As an aside, the reason today's n21 carries more than the N21 east of Great Neck did back then, is b/c there were more people from Queens that were/would have been already on N20's... Now if you're taking buses out of Queens, all you got is the n20G & depending on how far east past Great Neck you're ultimately trying to get to, your options are to xfer to the n20H or the n21 there.... It gives off the illusion that more people are seeking Glen Cove over Hicksville from (having been dumped off at) Great Neck, which is a fallacy.....

2] Extra service is always..... NICE

[B35 via Church]

On 11/2/2020 at 9:05 PM, danielhg121 said:

I don't think the N21 ever carried, at least I've never seen a crushloaded N21 back when it used to serve Flushing and I roamed those areas quite often. The frequency was lackluster compared to the N20 and I don't think there was significant demand for travel between Glen Cove and Flushing. It was definitely treated like the red-headed stepchild. NICE also slowly chipped away at it's frequency, made it a rush hour route and then just cut it at Great Neck as well. I've seen the morning n21 buses leave Great Neck and they carry maybe less than 10 passengers and I can't imagine it picking up any more riders after. The morning n21 to Great Neck did have a decent load though so there is a ridership base, probably riders getting to the LIRR or points north of Great Neck. 

 See above reply.

Today's n21 b/w Great Neck & Glen Cove carries more than the N21 did b/w those same 2 points.... Compared to the previous rider interchangeability with the old n20/n21 pattern b/w Flushing & Roslyn, today's n21 is being utilized interchangeably w/ the n20H at Great Neck... I find that the n21 is timelier/more reliable than the n20H & I'm of the suspicion that many riders do too... Of course, the n21 does nothing for anyone that's trying to get to Glen Cove rd (Greenvale), or Hicksville itself......

Short of axing the n21 completely, cutting it back to Great Neck is the best thing they could've done to that route... But this n20G/n20H crap, I just can't.....

On 11/3/2020 at 2:12 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

I was looking at a N20/21 schedule from 2009 and I actually didn’t know the N21 had limited stop service. 
Also I noticed that the N20 had a lot of short turns at Roslyn. 
I do think they should bring some type of service from points out East to Flushing but maybe in the form of a N20X that basically would be the old LTD. Or if they don’t do that perhaps create an N20R service that short turns at Roslyn to restore some type of Queens service along Northern Blvd in Nassau. 

On 11/3/2020 at 4:07 PM, Mtatransit said:

N21 Limited? Interesting, I didn't know about that

Yeah, that was back when they repurposed all the Flushing bound peak hour N21's as N21 LTD's (skipping LIRR Great Neck).... IIRC, they didn't do that to the N21 during the PM peak hours (from Flushing) -  they just left them as N21's, serving LIRR Great Neck....

Basically, a peak hour LTD service in one direction; like the B49 LTD to KCC in the morning.....

On 11/3/2020 at 4:07 PM, Mtatransit said:

Back then under LIB, there wasn't actually that many short trips at Great Neck. Most of the service continued onto either Mineola Avenue or Roslyn Clock Tower.

Yep, more or less, if it wasn't to Roslyn, it was on down to Hicksville....

All NICE really had to do was cut the n21 back to Great Neck... They got greedy & did it with (part of) the n20 also, with this n20G/n20H bit.

[Q43LTD]

So since I left New York, the n20, n22 and 24 are shells of themselves getting split and the 22A was eliminated? 

[FamousNYLover]

15 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

So since I left New York, the n20, n22 and 24 are shells of themselves getting split and the 22A was eliminated? 

n22A was discontinue on April 9th, 20017 as part of April 9th doomsday cut.

 

[User]

I'm not sure if anyone knows this or not but there are some Orion V CNG buses still stored at the former Rockville Centre bus depot at the southeast side on Banks Ave.

[Mtatransit]

On 11/8/2020 at 11:28 PM, Q43LTD said:

So since I left New York, the n20, n22 and 24 are shells of themselves getting split and the 22A was eliminated? 

The official reason why the route was split was for reliability reasons. I personally believe it was split so NICE could interline the eastern portion of the route with another route (essentially to save money).