BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[DetSMART45]

Low-floors, high-floors, engine sounds....wow, slow day on the forums.  Interesting convo, nonetheless.

 

Funny thing about HF vs LF -- watch how the customers approach them.  Back when HF was basically all there was, people just dealt with it (sorta like how Express Bus users just *know* they have to step up).  But see, if you would have LFs on a route regularly then have a couple HFs swapped in, people almost act as if they're "disabled" all of a sudden.  It gives me a chuckle to see "seniors" who have NO problem climbing onto a MCI commuter coach (for a free trip to one of the casinos), and then have "trouble" stepping up to a LF not kneeled at the curb.

 

Engine sounds .... I like hearing an engine PROPERLY used.  Foot down, full throttle until you know you're going to need to slow down/brake (or maintain speed).  Buses are no exception.  You use the tool properly, you get the best performance.  True, you could use a flat-head screwdriver as a wood chisel, but you get a better outcome (and with less time) if you actually USE a wood chisel.  Too many times, though, people just don't want to use a proper tool to its fullest potential.

[Fresh Pond]

I don't understand why they have so much pull anyway? I mean what makes Quill and ENY so special from any other depot? I think that whole policy should change. Seems like ENY in particular gets whatever it wants and complains constantly about their fleet like spoiled brats, while other depots deal with hand-me-downs and make it work.

Quill is Manhattan Division headquarters and always had some pull, and ENY is the entire Surface Transit headquarters.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

While I agree that build quality is somewhat lacking, you will always feel more bumps on a low floor bus because you are closer to the ground...

Agreed, but you really feel the bumps in your body on those low floor buses, esp. those NOVA artics.

[pranavbhat924]

For those people that were asking, the winter picks start on Jan 8. That's also when the M5 will be split into the M5 and M55 and CP will loose the Q53 bus route in exchange for the Q23 and Q19 routes.

[DetSMART45]

Agreed, but you really feel the bumps in your body on those low floor buses, esp. those NOVA artics.

How old are all of these low floors everyone is saying have such bad ride quality?

 

The SMART Gilligs from 2002-3, we've been told, have over 500,000 (some close to 750,000 -- supposedly) miles on them and the suspensions are terrible.  Part of that reason is there is no overhaul program (but it makes for a convenient excuse to push for replacing the fleet).  However, SMART got ~40 New Flyer D40LFs from DDOT that are also from 2003, with probably the same mileage on them, and the difference is night and day.

 

Those D40s have had far more "wear and tear" placed on them over their lifetimes, probably pretty close to the abuse seen by MTA buses.  And the other rub, is that DDOT was notorious for skimping on maintenance, while SMART mechanics worked pretty hard to keep those Gilligs running, all the while not seeing anywhere near the use/abuse happening in the city.

 

Even DDOT's ~40 Gilligs from 2011, the newest of their fleet until the Xcelsiors came in in 2014, are not on any negative trajectory after 5 years of service toward what SMART is experiencing with their fleet aging 10.

 

Comparing new buses, the SMART Gillig "BRT"-design vs DDOT Xcelsiors, the New Flyers still have the best ride quality.  We have the RTA 498 Woodward RefleX limited-stop service through Detroit and suburbia, run by DDOT, and there's a representation of each of the fleet operating it (specially wrapped): a 2014 Xcelsior, a 2011 Gillig, and a 2010 D40LF.  SMART runs both the old 2002-3 Gilligs and the 2015-6 Gillig BRTs, but also the old DDOT 2003 D40s.  All of these hit the same bumps, especially at the shared busy stops but also in the curb-lane.  Verdict?  All those DDOT buses (including the old 2003s now operated by SMART) provide the best ride, with the NEW SMART Gilligs performing slightly better than the old, beat-up 2002-3s.

 

Around here, ride quality seems to hinge on the construction of the buses, since as I said, there's no real overhaul programs in place to keep fleets running anywhere close to the 20 years the MTA attempts to approach.  If the MTA is cutting back on that overhaul program (or maintenance in general), then that could be part of the reason the ride quality is becoming worse.

Edited December 16, 2016 by DetSMART45

[Via Garibaldi 8]

How old are all of these low floors everyone is saying have such bad ride quality?

 

The SMART Gilligs from 2002-3, we've been told, have over 500,000 (some close to 750,000 -- supposedly) miles on them and the suspensions are terrible.  Part of that reason is there is no overhaul program (but it makes for a convenient excuse to push for replacing the fleet).  However, SMART got ~40 New Flyer D40LFs from DDOT that are also from 2003, with probably the same mileage on them, and the difference is night and day.

 

Those D40s have had far more "wear and tear" placed on them over their lifetimes, probably pretty close to the abuse seen by MTA buses.  And the other rub, is that DDOT was notorious for skimping on maintenance, while SMART mechanics worked pretty hard to keep those Gilligs running, all the while not seeing anywhere near the use/abuse happening in the city.

 

Even DDOT's ~40 Gilligs from 2011, the newest of their fleet until the Xcelsiors came in in 2014, are not on any negative trajectory after 5 years of service toward what SMART is experiencing with their fleet aging 10.

 

Comparing new buses, the SMART Gillig "BRT"-design vs DDOT Xcelsiors, the New Flyers still have the best ride quality.  We have the RTA 498 Woodward RefleX limited-stop service through Detroit and suburbia, run by DDOT, and there's a representation of each of the fleet operating it (specially wrapped): a 2014 Xcelsior, a 2011 Gillig, and a 2010 D40LF.  SMART runs both the old 2002-3 Gilligs and the 2015-6 Gillig BRTs, but also the old DDOT 2003 D40s.  All of these hit the same bumps, especially at the shared busy stops but also in the curb-lane.  Verdict?  All those DDOT buses (including the old 2003s now operated by SMART) provide the best ride, with the NEW SMART Gilligs performing slightly better than the old, beat-up 2002-3s.

 

Around here, ride quality seems to hinge on the construction of the buses, since as I said, there's no real overhaul programs in place to keep fleets running anywhere close to the 20 years the MTA attempts to approach.  If the MTA is cutting back on that overhaul program (or maintenance in general), then that could be part of the reason the ride quality is becoming worse.

I believe the oldest ones are from 2010 (referring to the artics).  I don't find the hybrids to be that bad in terms of feeling the bumps, though their acceleration and stopping leaves a lot to be desired, but those NOVAS are just terrible.  Some of the oldest ones look like they're a lot older, perhaps in part because they're run into the ground on heavily used lines.

[Kingsbridgeviewer382]

The oldest low floors we have are the Orion VII (6365-6489) and their CNG counterparts (7560-7684) at 12-13 years old.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The oldest low floors we have are the Orion VII (6365-6489) and their CNG counterparts (7560-7684) at 12-13 years old.

Correct.  I think those have held up better than the NOVAS to be honest, though I am happy that some are being retired.  Never liked the look of those buses.

[DetSMART45]

Correct.  I think those have held up better than the NOVAS to be honest, though I am happy that some are being retired.  Never liked the look of those buses.

If those Novas aren't holding up so well, I think the CTA is going to be in for a surprise since they decided to award contracts for those over Xcelsiors.  Even after getting New Flyer to overhaul all of their D40s with 10+ years on them.  (Always thought that was a dumb move -- the contract award, that is.)

 

Sorta glad DDOT didn't "trade" deliveries with some TAs ordering Novas back when they were begging for new buses while in bankruptcy.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If those Novas aren't holding up so well, I think the CTA is going to be in for a surprise since they decided to award contracts for those over Xcelsiors.  Even after getting New Flyer to overhaul all of their D40s with 10+ years on them.  (Always thought that was a dumb move -- the contract award, that is.)

 

Sorta glad DDOT didn't "trade" deliveries with some TAs ordering Novas back when they were begging for new buses while in bankruptcy.

The Xcelsiors aren't much better though in terms of build.  I don't ride them often, but when I have, I have not been pleased.  The oldest ones that are artics look like garbage already, and they were built two years after the first NOVAs started coming in.  Overall, it's evident that these companies aren't building the buses to last 20 years.

[Fresh Pond]

The Xcelsiors aren't much better though in terms of build. I don't ride them often, but when I have, I have not been pleased. The oldest ones that are artics look like garbage already, and they were built two years after the first NOVAs started coming in. Overall, it's evident that these companies aren't building the buses to last 20 years.

Well you gotta keep in mind that we do have the first Xcelsior artics ever built. Doesn't make it any better that we run everything to the ground lol

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well you gotta keep in mind that we do have the first Xcelsior artics ever built. Doesn't make it any better that we run everything to the ground lol

I think that's the main problem... lol IMO the best buses out there now are the MCIs in terms of build quality.  They could definitely run some of those buses longer even though the plan apparently is to retire some of them.  I still find a lot of them to be in great shape overall for their age.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Via Garibaldi 8

[paulrivera]

I really love how people who can probably take the Bx22, the local Bx12, or the Bee-Line buses over to Fordham all cram on the Select Bx12 at White Plains Road. You literally have people waiting by the hundreds at the SBS stop, even when those buses come 3 minutes apart.

 

Anyone wanna loan me $30 billion to build a subway line?

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

I really love how people who can probably take the Bx22, the local Bx12, or the Bee-Line buses over to Fordham all cram on the Select Bx12 at White Plains Road. You literally have people waiting by the hundreds at the SBS stop, even when those buses come 3 minutes apart.

 

Anyone wanna loan me $30 billion to build a subway line?

I'm guessing the italicized is a AM Rush thing since afterwards those things don't run close to 3 minute headways.

 

On a side note I took the BxM7 into Co-op City from Manhattan so I did my part to reduce PM Rush demand for the Bx12.

Edited December 16, 2016 by JubaionBx12+SBS

[MikeC]

I think that's the main problem... lol IMO the best buses out there now are the MCIs in terms of build quality.  They could definitely run some of those buses longer even though the plan apparently is to retire some of them.  I still find a lot of them to be in great shape overall for their age.

I wish the D4500 CLs would stay around forever. 

[KingNas]

Maintenance has no control over what buses go where. Where buses are placed is more of a logistical decision. The bosses take into account how many different types of buses are at a specific depot, do the new buses share common parts with the buses currently at the depot, is there anything specific that maintenance personal need to be trained on before the buses arrive, and several other factors. The only people that have a direct say in which buses come to their depots are the bosses at Quill and ENY. Other than that, the MTA will make their decision based on several factors that can effect the safe and reliable operation of the buses in passenger service.

 

 

well from what I read on here, Depots like UP maintenance dept.  dont want anything to do with orions so they got rid of the 7000's and got back RTS' 

 

I might be wrong. And also wanted zero to do with Hybrids

 

 

either way, RTS' are one of the most dreaded buses ( yes in the past, we had no choice) 

 

Most operators dont care about how it sounds, how it hits potholes. 

They care about preserving their bodies.

 

Most drivers if you really notice, who have lots of time on the job, walk with a limp.

 

Tough brake pedals, and interlocks wreak havoc on cartilage and ligaments. Sitting in crunched up quarters. Affects our lower spines. Some of the RTS' cant even move the seats back .

 

RIP to the tall operators who have to go to Williamsburg bridge from Kings plaza for an entire 2 round trips before he/ she can give up the bus. 

 

Maybe I'm just venting, but I'm trying to open some of you kind gentlemen's eyes to what operators face.

[MikeC]

well from what I read on here, Depots like UP maintenance dept.  dont want anything to do with orions so they got rid of the 7000's and got back RTS' 

 

I might be wrong. And also wanted zero to do with Hybrids

 

 

either way, RTS' are one of the most dreaded buses ( yes in the past, we had no choice) 

 

Most operators dont care about how it sounds, how it hits potholes. 

They care about preserving their bodies.

 

Most drivers if you really notice, who have lots of time on the job, walk with a limp.

 

Tough brake pedals, and interlocks wreak havoc on cartilage and ligaments. Sitting in crunched up quarters. Affects our lower spines. Some of the RTS' cant even move the seats back .

 

RIP to the tall operators who have to go to Williamsburg bridge from Kings plaza for an entire 2 round trips before he/ she can give up the bus. 

 

Maybe I'm just venting, but I'm trying to open some of you kind gentlemen's eyes to what operators face.

Believe me I know first hand with my dad. Some vets I know refuse to take anything else out. It's all preference like the car you own I suppose

[LegoBrickBreaker101]

Several Gun Hill buses are using hybrids and RTS' from Queens Village and Jamaica today. Just caught one on the Bx12 Select.

 

https://youtu.be/vBu1amRzsqc

[GojiMet86]

Speaking of snow, the entire M60 has Orion NG EXCEPT for RTS #9414.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Several Gun Hill buses are using hybrids and RTS' from Queens Village and Jamaica today. Just caught one on the Bx12 Select.

 

https://youtu.be/vBu1amRzsqc

Well damn. I just looked at the Bx4/A. Two Buses are worth catching today (although both may end up on the other variant since they are the same route basically), 4924 and 6900 respectively. If that's the tip of the iceberg (see what I did there?), I can wait to see other routes. Edited December 17, 2016 by ShadeJay

[DetSMART45]

well from what I read on here, Depots like UP maintenance dept.  dont want anything to do with orions so they got rid of the 7000's and got back RTS' 

 

I might be wrong. And also wanted zero to do with Hybrids

 

 

either way, RTS' are one of the most dreaded buses ( yes in the past, we had no choice) 

 

Most operators dont care about how it sounds, how it hits potholes. 

They care about preserving their bodies.

 

Most drivers if you really notice, who have lots of time on the job, walk with a limp.

 

Tough brake pedals, and interlocks wreak havoc on cartilage and ligaments. Sitting in crunched up quarters. Affects our lower spines. Some of the RTS' cant even move the seats back .

 

RIP to the tall operators who have to go to Williamsburg bridge from Kings plaza for an entire 2 round trips before he/ she can give up the bus. 

 

Maybe I'm just venting, but I'm trying to open some of you kind gentlemen's eyes to what operators face.

Sounds like personal preference.  Some of the DDOT drivers didn't want the RTSes to go, said they could handle them better than the New Flyer D40LFs.  Just like now, DDOT fleet is predominantly New Flyer, and most drivers still prefer the D40s over the Xcelsiors, but some have a preference for pulling out the Xcelsiors.  The Gilligs, however, those are practically despised all the way around.

 

Now over at SMART, Gilligs have been the entire fleet even back when Phantoms were out.  Once Nova started RTS production, those were phased out in favor of the Phantoms -- then those were vamoosed once the lowfloors started becoming more popular (back in the 90s).  Since SMART has some of the old DDOT D40LFs, you have some drivers who will literally have a tantrum if they have to pull one out.  Biggest complaint?  Higher cabin ........ that's it.  Never mind that you have a better view of your panel, you're up a little higher suspension-wise, they actually have heat that works, all your idiot lights are right in front of you, and they actually accelerate.

 

I've seen more than one "big boy" DDOT operator (male and female) get into a New Flyer seat, and a couple of them I didn't know how that was going to happen.  One guy must have been 350 lbs if not more (yes, the bus did dip when he stepped on), and boy did that guy whip that bus around.

 

All in the personal preference based on what you're used to.

[LegoBrickBreaker101]

Speaking of snow, the entire M60 has Orion NG EXCEPT for RTS #9414.

 

Well damn. I just looked at the Bx4/A. Two Buses are worth catching today (although both may end up on the other variant since they are the same route basically), 4924 and 6900 respectively. If that's the tip of the iceberg (see what I did there?), I can wait to see other routes.

 

I love how most artic routes are using standards, except for Quill, who is putting their LFSAs and D60s out on the streets.

[DetSMART45]

I love how most artic routes are using standards, except for Quill, who is putting their LFSAs and D60s out on the streets.

D60s should be just fine unless you've got anything beyond 5" on the ground.  Lowfloor artics get a little tail-happy after a heavy 2-3".  Heard some stories from DDOT operators who used to drive the old Neoplans and made those work just fine in practically anything, since the city was, let's just say, more than a little "complacent" when it came to plowing.

[danielhg121]

Kingsbridge has a few put on Bx1/2 like #5673 and #5695 and #5710 is on Bx9 and GH has #4774 on Bx5

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

[Via Garibaldi 8]

well from what I read on here, Depots like UP maintenance dept.  dont want anything to do with orions so they got rid of the 7000's and got back RTS' 

 

I might be wrong. And also wanted zero to do with Hybrids

 

 

either way, RTS' are one of the most dreaded buses ( yes in the past, we had no choice) 

 

Most operators dont care about how it sounds, how it hits potholes. 

They care about preserving their bodies.

 

Most drivers if you really notice, who have lots of time on the job, walk with a limp.

 

Tough brake pedals, and interlocks wreak havoc on cartilage and ligaments. Sitting in crunched up quarters. Affects our lower spines. Some of the RTS' cant even move the seats back .

 

RIP to the tall operators who have to go to Williamsburg bridge from Kings plaza for an entire 2 round trips before he/ she can give up the bus. 

 

Maybe I'm just venting, but I'm trying to open some of you kind gentlemen's eyes to what operators face.

Some B/O's that I am buddies with talk about these very issues... Back pain being one of them... My advice is to pick the shorter routes. My uncle is set to retire soon and he has been doing crosstown routes ever since he left 100th street.