BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[B35 via Church]

On 9/12/2024 at 2:17 AM, JAzumah said:

For starters, having a one hour gap on the SIM23 and SIM24 during rush hours is unacceptable. One of the reasons why I do not support congestion pricing (despite understanding the MTA's legitimate need for capital funds) is that I do not expect the MTA to be able to keep up with the increased demand for service once the charge begins. Hochul postponed the congestion zone because it was being held against Team D during election season. I expect Hochul to greenlight a January start for the program.

Not that I'm in favor of either, but didn't that witch (plan on) replacing congestion pricing with a tax on local businesses? Or was that reneged on also....

I said many moons ago that NYC will be the downfall of NYC.... Unfortunately, I'm still in the middle of this dog & pony show

Anyway, there's no way I expect the MTA to fulfill whatever increase in demand that you reference would ensue - when the default mindset (esp. when it comes to buses) is to find ways to continually chip away at service (this includes these network redesigns btw), instead of making public transit more attractive to riders/commuters..... Like you, there's many reasons I don't support this shit.... One of the main ones being that it has f**k all to do with actually wanting to relieve congestion...

On 9/12/2024 at 2:17 AM, JAzumah said:

...In addition, it is my expectation that the US military will start asking transit agencies to help with troop movements next year.

...and if they refuse?

[Robert Spire]

On 9/12/2024 at 9:17 AM, JAzumah said:

They are going to need those buses and I highly suggest that they have them ready as soon as they can.

For starters, having a one hour gap on the SIM23 and SIM24 during rush hours is unacceptable. One of the reasons why I do not support congestion pricing (despite understanding the MTA's legitimate need for capital funds) is that I do not expect the MTA to be able to keep up with the increased demand for service once the charge begins. Hochul postponed the congestion zone because it was being held against Team D during election season. I expect Hochul to greenlight a January start for the program.

In addition, it is my expectation that the US military will start asking transit agencies to help with troop movements next year.

I doubt congestion pricing gets launched without the legslature mandating a specific pricing plan with a specific start date everyone can agree to. Cuomo designed the 2019 plan to fail. 
 

Also why do you say what you say about the military?

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Not that I'm in favor of either, but didn't that witch (plan on) replacing congestion pricing with a tax on local businesses? Or was that reneged on also....

I said many moons ago that NYC will be the downfall of NYC.... Unfortunately, I'm still in the middle of this dog & pony show

Anyway, there's no way I expect the MTA to fulfill whatever increase in demand that you reference would ensue - when the default mindset (esp. when it comes to buses) is to find ways to continually chip away at service (this includes these network redesigns btw), instead of making public transit more attractive to riders/commuters..... Like you, there's many reasons I don't support this shit.... One of the main ones being that it has f**k all to do with actually wanting to relieve congestion...

...and if they refuse?

It is largely a culture war. Congestion pricing will neither reduce congestion nor lead to improved transit. If anything, it will lead to Manhattan being a place only those who can afford to live in Manhattan or gentrified Brooklyn visit or work in (look at 15 minute cities). 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Been seeing many buses around Queens have the "FARE REQUIRED" scroll on their signs. A bit of a throwback to the same time period about 4 years ago.

I guess this is the other part of their plan to combat fare evaders, to which I say good luck, lol. People barely pay attention to the signs in the first place. 

[MysteriousBtrain]

20 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Been seeing many buses around Queens have the "FARE REQUIRED" scroll on their signs. A bit of a throwback to the same time period about 4 years ago.

I guess this is the other part of their plan to combat fare evaders, to which I say good luck, lol. People barely pay attention to the signs in the first place. 

I noticed more people trying to enforce the fare regularly and refusing to move until the fare is payed, some doing it without proper security guards around. Yet according to the latest MTA bulletin, they are not allowed to do anything except state the fare and keep all non SBS routes off of SBS mode for the rear doors. I already see another story coming in real soon that's gonna be similar to the incident where a driver was killed in 2009.

[JAzumah]

9 hours ago, Robert Spire said:

Also why do you say what you say about the military?

I expect a national mobilization in the next two years. There are not enough private buses available to support this activity.

[JAzumah]

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I guess this is the other part of their plan to combat fare evaders, to which I say good luck, lol. People barely pay attention to the signs in the first place. 

I believe that this is the warning before the Eagle team + NYPD start yanking people off of buses and trains. The correlation between fare evasion and crime is too high in the subway for them to let this go. If it were just about the money, they would not care as much.

[JAzumah]

11 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

...and if they refuse?

They will not refuse. They will fight over this work to balance their budget.

[JAzumah]

11 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

One of the main ones being that it has f**k all to do with actually wanting to relieve congestion...

That's correct and people are making that argument in court right now. If you can't run one trip in each direction more on the SIM23 and SIM24, then you don't have the ability to increase service to mitigate the increased traffic generated by congestion pricing. 

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Been seeing many buses around Queens have the "FARE REQUIRED" scroll on their signs. A bit of a throwback to the same time period about 4 years ago.

I guess this is the other part of their plan to combat fare evaders, to which I say good luck, lol. People barely pay attention to the signs in the first place. 

I see it as a feeble ploy to get whatever minuscule percentage of people that eventually caved in to the culture of farebeating (after years of being paying suckers, while having seen as high a percentage of non-paying riders before the fact) to go back to paying....

52 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

I believe that this is the warning before the Eagle team + NYPD start yanking people off of buses and trains. The correlation between fare evasion and crime is too high in the subway for them to let this go. If it were just about the money, they would not care as much.

The correlation between [these cops on foot patrol on street corners & in the subway system] & [standing around doing nothing but shooting the shit amongst themselves and/or dicking around on their phones] are at an all time high..... LOL.... I'll believe NYPD'll (be told to) start doing something called effective policing in this city when I see it - and not a second before....

48 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

They will not refuse. They will fight over this work to balance their budget.

Oh, I agree there won't be any refusing.... There won't be much of any asking either... It'll be demanded upon them.

[JAzumah]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The correlation between [these cops on foot patrol on street corners & in the subway system] & [standing around doing nothing but shooting the shit amongst themselves and/or dicking around on their phones] are at an all time high..... LOL.... I'll believe NYPD'll (be told to) start doing something called effective policing in this city when I see it - and not a second before....

The rich people in real estate are drawing a line and they donate A LOT of money to our political friends.

[4 via Mosholu]

5 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

 I already see another story coming in real soon that's gonna be similar to the incident where a driver was killed in 2009.

Make that December 1st, 2008 on the B46 LIMITED where Edwin Thomas, a Flatbush bus driver, was stabbed to death over the then fare; the plexiglass shields were first deployed at the depot in 2009, the year you spoke of.

[Robert Spire]

8 hours ago, JAzumah said:

I believe that this is the warning before the Eagle team + NYPD start yanking people off of buses and trains. The correlation between fare evasion and crime is too high in the subway for them to let this go. If it were just about the money, they would not care as much.

I think there is going to eventually be a policy debate about having the local buses be free. Free bus to subway transfers and unlimited rides already reduced the real amount of money brought in the fareboxes on buses since 1997. 
 

I also highly doubt the same people beating the fare on a B35 or B46 or Q5 are beating the fare on dollar vans or dollar cabs. 

[JAzumah]

2 hours ago, Robert Spire said:

I also highly doubt the same people beating the fare on a B35 or B46 or Q5 are beating the fare on dollar vans or dollar cabs. 

100% correct.

If the city and state flushed the illegal operators, the legal guys would be RICH. However, the city lets people run illegally to keep them all weak. They were at their strongest when enforcement came out every single week. They collect all their fares and if you are a known fare beater, no one picks you up. It is socially enforced by passengers and drivers alike.

 

2 hours ago, Robert Spire said:

I think there is going to eventually be a policy debate about having the local buses be free. Free bus to subway transfers and unlimited rides already reduced the real amount of money brought in the fareboxes on buses since 1997. 

If the MTA writes me a check for $3M, I will write a plan for them to end this fare evasion problem on the buses. They will recover that money in less than 6 months. I am not giving that advice for free because I want them to do it.

Buses should NOT be free. Fares offset the operational cost regardless of which politician is in power and fares keep passengers invested in the system. The best free bus system I have seen is Disney. When I start seeing buses operated like Disneyland with dynamic routing based on passenger demand by public entities, I might reconsider my stance. How do you track customer usage across free buses? How do you prevent buses from getting overwhelmed? Will you have rich trains and poor buses?

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, Robert Spire said:

I also highly doubt the same people beating the fare on a B35 or B46 or Q5 are beating the fare on dollar vans or dollar cabs. 

Not if they like their life....

4 hours ago, Robert Spire said:

I think there is going to eventually be a policy debate about having the local buses be free. Free bus to subway transfers and unlimited rides already reduced the real amount of money brought in the fareboxes on buses since 1997.

As much as I hate to admit it, quite honestly, so do I.... But at the same time, I don't see it ultimately falling through.... Instead, the plethora of services & service levels of those services I see ending up drastically dwindling, compared to what we currently have.....

Imagine the M15 on near, to actual coverage headways.... Yikes.....

7 hours ago, JAzumah said:

The rich people in real estate are drawing a line and they donate A LOT of money to our political friends.

Sure, the same monies being cycled amongst themselves, while continuing to engage in whatever perpetual schemes of corruption to line their pockets' that much more.... They're all in cahoots with each other & they're most certainly not in it to improve the quality of the lives of the common man & woman like you & I.....

58 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

....Fares offset the operational cost regardless of which politician is in power and fares keep passengers invested in the system.

* go towards offsetting.

But yeah, that last part is right in line with my sentiment of riders in this city solely seeing public transit as a means to an end... The fact that there's a whole farebeating culture that's been fostered over the years is proof positive that too many folks in this city do not place a high enough value on public transit... The MTA's attitude towards the riding public has a lot to do with that...

[Robert Spire]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

But yeah, that last part is right in line with my sentiment of riders in this city solely seeing public transit as a means to an end... The fact that there's a whole farebeating culture that's been fostered over the years is proof positive that too many folks in this city do not place a high enough value on public transit... The MTA's attitude towards the riding public has a lot to do with that...

A journalist on Twitter once said the MTA likely has a lower favorability rating than Hamas.
 

Even if people use public transit and say they are satisfied with it in surveys, they are not enthusiastic about using it. Most people on subways other than railfans and most people on buses other than busfans would rather be in a car, whether their own or a Uber or Lyft. There is this part of me that thinks that rideshare cars and citibike are the young urban professionals version of express buses. 

[MysteriousBtrain]

Came across this doing research on the 1991 proposed changes:

https://www.laguardiawagnerarchive.lagcc.cuny.edu/pages/FileBrowser.aspx?LinkToFile=FILES_DOC/QUEENS_FILES/03.012.0231.030147.2.PDF

There's not much to really note besides service spans and the addition of the proposed skip stop but there were 4 proposals that are highlighted as part of this plan:

-The addition of a Q49 between Harlem and LaGuardia Airport, with the Harlem terminal located at or near the Metro North station. This has since evolved into the M60.

-Restructuring the M9/14/21 in alphabet City. Largely identical to the 2010 changes (M9 was actually proposed going a couple more blocks north to 34th St), but under this plan the M14D would be discontinued and replaced with a new M14C, strictly on Av C. All Av D service would be discontinued.

-Extension of the Bx34 to Mount Vernon. This seems similar to a proposed Bx23 between Fordham and Mount Vernon that was talked about during the 2000's. The Bx34 would serve Katonah then head to Mount Vernon making a right onto McLean/Nereid Av, left on Muddy Lane, right on W 3rd St, and left on S 5 Av. Service from Mount Vernon makes the trip back in reverse. The Bx34 would end in the bus plaza to connect with the new Haven line.

-Bx36/40/42 restructuring: similar to the Bronx Bus redesign, the bus routes were planned to be swapped, but only between Webster Av and Morris Heights. The Bx36 would use Burnside Avenue between University Av and Webster Av and the Bx40/42 would remain on Tremont Av between Webster Av and Sedgwick Av. All service east of Webster Av would continue to operate as it did pre-redesign

Edited Sunday at 06:48 PM by MysteriousBtrain

[JAzumah]

1 hour ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Came across this doing research on the 1991 proposed changes:

https://www.laguardiawagnerarchive.lagcc.cuny.edu/pages/FileBrowser.aspx?LinkToFile=FILES_DOC/QUEENS_FILES/03.012.0231.030147.2.PDF

There's not much to really note besides service spans and the addition of the proposed skip stop but there were 4 proposals that are highlighted as part of this plan:

-The addition of a Q49 between Harlem and LaGuardia Airport, with the Harlem terminal located at or near the Metro North station. This has since evolved into the M60.

-Restructuring the M9/14/21 in alphabet City. Largely identical to the 2010 changes (M9 was actually proposed going a couple more blocks north to 34th St), but under this plan the M14D would be discontinued and replaced with a new M14C, strictly on Av C. All Av D service would be discontinued.

-Extension of the Bx34 to Mount Vernon. This seems similar to a proposed Bx23 between Fordham and Mount Vernon that was talked about during the 2000's. The Bx34 would serve Katonah then head to Mount Vernon making a right onto McLean/Nereid Av, left on Muddy Lane, right on W 3rd St, and left on S 5 Av. Service from Mount Vernon makes the trip back in reverse. The Bx34 would end in the bus plaza to connect with the new Haven line.

-Bx36/40/42 restructuring: similar to the Bronx Bus redesign, the bus routes were planned to be swapped, but only between Webster Av and Morris Heights. The Bx36 would use Burnside Avenue between University Av and Webster Av and the Bx40/42 would remain on Tremont Av between Webster Av and Sedgwick Av. All service east of Webster Av would continue to operate as it did pre-redesign

Intelligent people have ALWAYS worked at the MTA. Sometimes, people listen to them, but most of the time, they are ignored until it hits the fan.

[Robert Spire]

9 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

Intelligent people have ALWAYS worked at the MTA. Sometimes, people listen to them, but most of the time, they are ignored until it hits the fan.

It is the MTA’s corporate culture that is the problem. It was the problem back then and it has become even more acute now. Honestly the only antidote to that is competition that kicks the MTA’s behinds (another thing I miss about the private lines, that there was some level of competition to the MTA, one theory I have is if the private lines operated most routes in Manhattan up until the 2000s, the NYCDOT system would have survived). 

[Kamen Rider]

I just did a bit of a double take as there, I swear to God, a GO transit double decker parked on Metropolitan Avenue, in Ridewood/Maspeth, down the block from the fare collection center.

[xD4nn]

36 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

I just did a bit of a double take as there, I swear to God, a GO transit double decker parked on Metropolitan Avenue, in Ridewood/Maspeth, down the block from the fare collection center.

Theres a company out on Long Island that bought GO buses. They probably were driving them around.

[JAzumah]

22 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

As much as I hate to admit it, quite honestly, so do I.... But at the same time, I don't see it ultimately falling through.... Instead, the plethora of services & service levels of those services I see ending up drastically dwindling, compared to what we currently have.....

Imagine the M15 on near, to actual coverage headways.... Yikes.....

I remember Larry Littlefield talking about how MTA bus service would increase to 15-20 minute headways everywhere and people would be encouraged to use bikes as a replacement. We are not there yet, but I could see it happen for a little bit in certain places.

 

22 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

But yeah, that last part is right in line with my sentiment of riders in this city solely seeing public transit as a means to an end... The fact that there's a whole farebeating culture that's been fostered over the years is proof positive that too many folks in this city do not place a high enough value on public transit... The MTA's attitude towards the riding public has a lot to do with that...

That is correct. However, this idea that "someone else" should pay for it leads to a culture of non-ownership. If you don't own things, then you don't care about them. The rich do not pay for what they don't control. They are more than happy to pay for everything if they can control it all. That was called feudalism in the past. The Broncs (now the Bronx) was an actual family if I remember correctly.

[NBTA]

Interesting, 4986 pulled a Orion VII CNG, ran on the Bx28 tripper this morning. 

[Kingsbridgeviewer382]

16 minutes ago, NBTA said:

Interesting, 4986 pulled a Orion VII CNG, ran on the Bx28 tripper this morning. 

It’s not that surprising seeing that KB used their two XE60’s for the 28 before, but it is an interesting sight nonetheless.

[Robert Spire]

7 hours ago, JAzumah said:

I remember Larry Littlefield talking about how MTA bus service would increase to 15-20 minute headways everywhere and people would be encouraged to use bikes as a replacement. We are not there yet, but I could see it happen for a little bit in certain places.

 

That is correct. However, this idea that "someone else" should pay for it leads to a culture of non-ownership. If you don't own things, then you don't care about them. The rich do not pay for what they don't control. They are more than happy to pay for everything if they can control it all. That was called feudalism in the past. The Broncs (now the Bronx) was an actual family if I remember correctly.

I can see 15-20 minute coverage headways and bikes being encouraged as something that goes on in the outer boroughs. Manhattan wants their cake and eat it too, wait until MTA tries to redesign the Manhattan bus network. Believe me, if Manhattan private bus service survived into the 2000s or got folded into MTA Bus Company around the same time the Queens privates did, Manhattan bus service would be A LOT more generous than it is and any cut would be a tooth and nail fight.

But the big power play on Uber and Lyft’s part would be to leverage their shared ride options to destroy the dollar van operators and destroy the MTA express buses and destroy the low ridership MTA local routes. I remember reading that Uber wanted to be public transportation. 
 

Regarding feudalism, there is actually a book by Joel Kotkin, the coming of neo feudalism that is worth reading. The culture of non ownership is not just creeping with free transit service either. 

Edited Monday at 07:17 PM by Robert Spire

[IAlam]

A lot of CP buses began displaying the “fare required” signs again. I wonder if the garage is telling drivers to put that sign up again in the wake of fare beating crackdowns they’re doing on local buses.