BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[SoSpectacular]

11 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And going back to those CNG buses on the Spring Creek lines, I'm sure you saw the notices that the  would put up on those buses apologizing about how uncomfortable they were and how they were moving to the more comfortable MCI coach buses. Let me tell you... Those were some of the worst buses I have ever ridden. The "cushioned" seats were like bricks and God help you if you wanted to sit in the forward facing two seaters. Your legs would be crushed in them. I used to actually wait for another bus when I saw those. In my mind, paying for such a service for what is a long-ride and getting those buses were an insult, with no level of comfort whatsoever. Hell, you would get more comfort paying $2.75 and taking those local buses.

Speaking of the local buses, remember when they had the cloth "cushioned" seats on those? I certainly do. I think it was Bloomberg that toured the buses, but the  eventually went back to the hard seats, as those cloth seats required much more maintenance and when the seats wore out, forget it. They were disgusting to sit on. Hard seats belong on the local buses and they are quite comfortable today compared to the old local buses. Less maintenance too. 

As much as I enjoyed the cushioned seats on the Ulmer Park lines, those seats were literally destroyed. You have the coils sticking out in some seats and with the narrow aisles, standing snd getting off of the bus was a mess when they were crowded.

As for fare beating, I agree. They have spent years talking about it, and have done nothing to address it, or perhaps they have backed off because of some incidents with the NYPD. 
 

The only problem I ever really noticed with the suburban seated buses was their lack of capacity. Everything else seemed fine. It was problematic to get off the buses if they were SRO and you weren't near any of the exit doors. They were still a decent ride after all that when I used to ride the Q27 and/or the Q12 back then.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, SoSpectacular said:

The only problem I ever really noticed with the suburban seated buses was their lack of capacity. Everything else seemed fine. It was problematic to get off the buses if they were SRO and you weren't near any of the exit doors. They were still a decent ride after all that when I used to ride the Q27 and/or the Q12 back then.

I tried going back and looking online for some of the things I've noted with those buses, but we are going back over 10 years and my memory is iffy on a few details. However, I do distinctly recall capacity being one reason and comfort being the second that the  had those notices up on those buses when I would get the BM3. The layout was fine. Just uncomfortable seats and a lack of legroom in the two seaters. Ironically, I never took any that were packed. Out of curiosity, how many seats did the CNG buses have? 

@JAzumah P.S. I cannot remember where I recall hearing about the whole old RTS buses struggling on the expressways things. Too many years ago. Could've been from my uncle, but he didn't drive express as far as I know. Only local lines.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[MHV9218]

14 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The entire system right now is in trouble. Local, express, subway and the railroads. I have been taking Metro-North throughout the pandemic, and while the trains have been fuller, they are wayyyy behind. I had an entire section to myself on Sunday heading to the City. The rest of the car had maybe four or five people tops in it. Fares are too high in general for the poor service. While Metro-North has been good, even with the off-peak fares, it's still $7.25, not including any other costs. It's not enough to get people out of their cars.

Given that the system was at near-capacity with those same fares pre-covid, I don't see fares as the issue. Covid, and its lingering variants etc., seems like the problem. I'm not so sure that slashing the fares would fill Metro North up again. Riders are generally wealthier and they often own cars too. What we have right now is a complete modal shift, not necessarily a price point issue. Generally, NJT and Metro North commuter/business riders will pay pretty much whatever is needed to get to the city. In economic terms, you might say that during normal times commuter rail is an inelastic service, and local buses and subways are slightly more elastic (we have evidence that more people ride when the service is less expensive).

Edited November 30, 2021 by MHV9218

[JAzumah]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Ironically, I never took any that were packed. Out of curiosity, how many seats did the CNG buses have? 

The CNGs express units had 43 seats. Offically, they could only stand 10.

 

 

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

P.S. I cannot remember where I recall hearing about the whole old RTS buses struggling on the expressways things. Too many years ago. Could've been from my uncle, but he didn't drive express as far as I know. Only local lines.

1700/1800 series RTS. The 3800s were so-so, but there were not many of them.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Given that the system was at near-capacity with those same fares pre-covid, I don't see fares as the issue. Covid, and its lingering variants etc., seems like the problem. I'm not so sure that slashing the fares would fill Metro North up again. Riders are generally wealthier and they often own cars too. What we have right now is a complete modal shift, not necessarily a price point issue. Generally, NJT and Metro North commuter/business riders will pay pretty much whatever is needed to get to the city. In economic terms, you might say that during normal times commuter rail is an inelastic service, and local buses and subways are slightly more elastic (we have evidence that more people ride when the service is less expensive).

That is true in that pre-COVID, Metro-North saw record ridership, but that doesn't mean that riders weren't lost as fares have increased.  The  has discussed this issue in previous board meetings, which is that the fares are such that it is starting to push people into their cars. It's not so much that MNRR riders and other riders that use commuter services aren't wealthier because they definitely are, no question, but rather the cost of fares vs the cost to drive. Right now, even with off-peak fares being charged, when I go in with Metro-North from Riverdale, it's still $20.00 round trip if I use the shuttle bus and $24.00 w/peak fares, which will likely resume next year at some point. It starts to make more sense to drive in these scenarios, esp. if you aren't paying for parking in a garage or if you can snag a special.

I have a few colleagues right now that live in Upper Montclair and other parts of New Jersey. They have stopped taking the train or express bus and drive in when they need to now and that shift likely won't change.

For the local buses, demographics show that they tend to be poor, though there are exceptions of course. 

[Michael J Q Last Bus]

21 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That is true in that pre-COVID, Metro-North saw record ridership, but that doesn't mean that riders weren't lost as fares have increased.  The  has discussed this issue in previous board meetings, which is that the fares are such that it is starting to push people into their cars. It's not so much that MNRR riders and other riders that use commuter services aren't wealthier because they definitely are, no question, but rather the cost of fares vs the cost to drive. Right now, even with off-peak fares being charged, when I go in with Metro-North from Riverdale, it's still $20.00 round trip if I use the shuttle bus and $24.00 w/peak fares, which will likely resume next year at some point. It starts to make more sense to drive in these scenarios, esp. if you aren't paying for parking in a garage or if you can snag a special.

I have a few colleagues right now that live in Upper Montclair and other parts of New Jersey. They have stopped taking the train or express bus and drive in when they need to now and that shift likely won't change.

For the local buses, demographics show that they tend to be poor, though there are exceptions of course. 

 

[Michael J Q Last Bus]

I think that FB Depot should let East NY Depot borrow some 2019 XD60's for the B82+ SBS for more space for passengers but at the same time, the B82+ SBS doesn't get enough ridership for them to receive some 2019 XD60's so maybe that's why they don't have some at this time yet but in the future they should consider doing some borrowing from FB Depot.

[Michael J Q Last Bus]

21 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That is true in that pre-COVID, Metro-North saw record ridership, but that doesn't mean that riders weren't lost as fares have increased.  The  has discussed this issue in previous board meetings, which is that the fares are such that it is starting to push people into their cars. It's not so much that MNRR riders and other riders that use commuter services aren't wealthier because they definitely are, no question, but rather the cost of fares vs the cost to drive. Right now, even with off-peak fares being charged, when I go in with Metro-North from Riverdale, it's still $20.00 round trip if I use the shuttle bus and $24.00 w/peak fares, which will likely resume next year at some point. It starts to make more sense to drive in these scenarios, esp. if you aren't paying for parking in a garage or if you can snag a special.

I have a few colleagues right now that live in Upper Montclair and other parts of New Jersey. They have stopped taking the train or express bus and drive in when they need to now and that shift likely won't change.

For the local buses, demographics show that they tend to be poor, though there are exceptions of course. 

Yes and now that my colleagues tend to be driving at this point, I still have to travel using these unexpected prices for Round-Trip.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

I was once again stalking the Bx12 +SBS on BusTime to see passenger counts on the various buses and I tell you, you can't make up how slammed these buses are getting.

As I type this at almost 9 p.m. there is a Westbound trip that is approaching Pelham Parkway/Stillwell with an SRO load. 60 passengers to be exact

At a timestamp of 2:52 p.m. there was an Eastbound trip that left 207th/10th av with 107 passengers on board, a Westbound trip that left Fordham/Webster with 82 passengers on board and an Eastbound trip approaching the Baychester/I-95 exit stop with 65 passengers on board. Basically buses were crowded all along the route at the same time and it's not even rush hour. 

There was one bunch of buses in the afternoon before rush hour that left Fordham/Southern (Eastbound) with the following passenger counts; 80,47,29. The bus with 29 was the trail in the bunch along Fordham and leapfrogged to the lead position approaching Pelham Pkwy/WPR. The bus with 29 left White Plains Road with 71 passengers. The smooth sailing this trip had along Fordham ended real quick and in a hurry. 

Another pair of buses arrive bunched into Pelham Pkwy/WPR heading east this afternoon (before 4 pm so not pm rush yet). BOTH buses left the stop with in excess of 80 passengers. The passenger counts on the 2 buses entering WPR were 102 and 68 respectively.

One trip running Westbound around 3 pm left the stop at Pelham Pkwy/Eastchester with 73 passengers on board. Luckily, this bus driver was somewhat quick and closed the gap in front of him otherwise the ridership patterns of the route at that time of day would have had that bus easily going over 100 passengers at the White Plains Road stop.

At 4:06 pm a pair of Eastbound buses left 207th/10th av with the following passenger counts; 93, 78. 

This is all happening as the city is still recovering from a global pandemic that devastated transit ridership everywhere. If the Bx12 +Select in December 2021 is this busy, who knows what would be happening if the buses were being utilized at levels we were used to. 

[paulrivera]

13 minutes ago, JubaionBx12+SBS said:

At a timestamp of 2:52 p.m. there was an Eastbound trip that left 207th/10th av with 107 passengers on board, a Westbound trip that left Fordham/Webster with 82 passengers on board and an Eastbound trip approaching the Baychester/I-95 exit stop with 65 passengers on board. Basically buses were crowded all along the route at the same time and it's not even rush hour. 

With so many students and their caretakers being reliant on the bus system in the Bronx, rush hour actually goes from 2pm to 6pm on the bus side.

Go to Fordham Plaza at 3pm and wait for either Bx12 (which way you go doesn't matter). More often than not you won't be able to get on the first bus that gets there.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

22 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

With so many students and their caretakers being reliant on the bus system in the Bronx, rush hour actually goes from 2pm to 6pm on the bus side.

Go to Fordham Plaza at 3pm and wait for either Bx12 (which way you go doesn't matter). More often than not you won't be able to get on the first bus that gets there.

It's a very crowded line, but I don't think that many people pay the fare, which may be part of the issue. Granted, I have not used the Bx12 much over the years of living here in Riverdale, but I have a few times, and I recall each time being one of the few people to get a ticket, in fact I was the only one lol, and I'm talking about big stops like the one by Fordham University, so I wonder how often there is any Eagle Team out there checking? We talk about crowding on some of these Bronx local buses, but no one is talking about the rampant fare beating on some of these lines. The service doesn't pay for itself and all of the people not paying may skew the ridership numbers to make them appear lower than what they are. 

@JubaionBx12+SBS It's no secret how difficult getting crosstown in the Bronx is and Fordham Road is one of the few somewhat direct crosstown routes, so it will always be crowded.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[paulrivera]

3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's a very crowded line, but I don't think that many people pay the fare, which may be part of the issue. Granted, I have not used the Bx12 much over the years of living here in Riverdale, but I have a few times, and I recall each time being one of the few people to get a ticket, in fact I was the only one lol, and I'm talking about big stops like the one by Fordham University, so I wonder how often there is any Eagle Team out there checking? We talk about crowding on some of these Bronx local buses, but no one is talking about the rampant fare beating on some of these lines. The service doesn't pay for itself and all of the people not paying may skew the ridership numbers to make them appear lower than what they are. 

Yup. This is exactly why PM rush headways went from 4 minutes to 5 minutes. The people do ride, but there are people that don't pay. In fact, I've seen the local Bx12 B/O's have more of an issue with people boarding with the SBS ticket than with actual farebeaters, go figure.

As for the eagle teams, at least pre-Covid I'd only see them along the Bx12 consistently in the AM. They were far more sporadic in the PM. Heck, one time I saw them out and about at 5:30 in the morning and were doing checks on the very first bus of the day 😄 (but that was ages ago)

[Express Bus Operator]

12 hours ago, Michael J Q Last Bus said:

I think that FB Depot should let East NY Depot borrow some 2019 XD60's for the B82+ SBS for more space for passengers but at the same time, the B82+ SBS doesn't get enough ridership for them to receive some 2019 XD60's so maybe that's why they don't have some at this time yet but in the future they should consider doing some borrowing from FB Depot.

ENY can’t borrow any articulated buses from another depot if the 82 route has not been tested yet for Articulated buses. The union and Road operations have to come into agreements first before they can run articulated buses over there. Plans on papers show ENY will carry Articulated buses for the B15 and SBS82.

[R10 2952]

15 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

Yup. This is exactly why PM rush headways went from 4 minutes to 5 minutes. The people do ride, but there are people that don't pay. In fact, I've seen the local Bx12 B/O's have more of an issue with people boarding with the SBS ticket than with actual farebeaters, go figure.

As for the eagle teams, at least pre-Covid I'd only see them along the Bx12 consistently in the AM. They were far more sporadic in the PM. Heck, one time I saw them out and about at 5:30 in the morning and were doing checks on the very first bus of the day 😄 (but that was ages ago)

To be fair, I used to see the Special Forces wannabes Eagle Team pop up semi-regularly on the eastbound Bx12 on the stretch from Third to Jerome Avenue, usually between 12 and 4 PM.

One time the bus got stuck in traffic and red lights at a point where passengers could see the Eagle dudes waiting at the stop, 100 feet ahead.  Some woman with two kids started crying because she had been caught before and hadn't paid the previous fine; was afraid of getting arrested this time around.  Just as the inspectors boarded, a guy gave her his SBS ticket and slipped out the rear door unnoticed before the Eagle people got to the back of the bus.

F**king irresponsible, if you ask me. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by R10 2952

[Via Garibaldi 8]

20 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

Yup. This is exactly why PM rush headways went from 4 minutes to 5 minutes. The people do ride, but there are people that don't pay. In fact, I've seen the local Bx12 B/O's have more of an issue with people boarding with the SBS ticket than with actual farebeaters, go figure.

As for the eagle teams, at least pre-Covid I'd only see them along the Bx12 consistently in the AM. They were far more sporadic in the PM. Heck, one time I saw them out and about at 5:30 in the morning and were doing checks on the very first bus of the day 😄 (but that was ages ago)

Truth be told, I have been using the M34 I would say since it's become cold when I don't feel like paying for Uber or am too lazy to walk (we're talking four or five crosstown blocks max) and I have yet to see any Eagle Team all of the times I have used it. In fact over the years, I have NEVER seen an Eagle Team on that line ever.

Going back to the Bx12, don't they have bus lanes that run the length of the line? That is the one thing I have noticed with the M34. The bus lanes have been slightly changed in some areas and the bus actually moves without any issue. I hear about traffic holding the line up, but the DOT should've looked at the choke points and fixed that.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[QM1to6Ave]

18 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Truth be told, I have been using the M34 I would say since it's become cold when I don't feel like paying for Uber or am too lazy to walk (we're talking four or five crosstown blocks max) and I have yet to see any Eagle Team all of the times I have used it. In fact over the years, I have NEVER seen an Eagle Team on that line ever.

Going back to the Bx12, don't they have bus lanes that run the length of the line? That is the one thing I have noticed with the M34. The bus lanes have been slightly changed in some areas and the bus actually moves without any issue. I hear about traffic holding the line up, but the DOT should've looked at the choke points and fixed that.

I've seen the Eagle Team every so often set up on 34th and 3rd Westbound on the M34/A in the mornings. The only consistent place I see them is on Union Tpke and Main Street on Thursday evenings for the Q44, except most of the time they just sit in their van doing nothing. I only occasionally see them actually check anything. I think back in June they actually checked the Q44 I was on one time. Happened to be a very nice "officer" for once that checked my ticket.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

27 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's a very crowded line, but I don't think that many people pay the fare, which may be part of the issue. Granted, I have not used the Bx12 much over the years of living here in Riverdale, but I have a few times, and I recall each time being one of the few people to get a ticket, in fact I was the only one lol, and I'm talking about big stops like the one by Fordham University, so I wonder how often there is any Eagle Team out there checking? We talk about crowding on some of these Bronx local buses, but no one is talking about the rampant fare beating on some of these lines. The service doesn't pay for itself and all of the people not paying may skew the ridership numbers to make them appear lower than what they are. 

@JubaionBx12+SBS It's no secret how different getting crosstown in the Bronx is and Fordham Road is one of the few someone direct crosstown routes, so it will always be crowded.

I find it somewhat troubling that when bronx local buses are bought up, for whatever reason it may be, you always have fare evasion on the top of your mind.  Had the post that I made referenced the M15 would you have been so quick to bring up a red herring like that? My guess would be no.

There's a huge difference between a route being crowded (a whole bunch of routes across the city are) and what happens on the Bx12 +SBS on a day to day basis when the city isn't locked down. That huge difference is what I was trying to point out and possibly bring up some discussion on but I guess always being crowded settles the matter. Thanks for your contribution tonight.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

31 minutes ago, QM1to6Ave said:

I've seen the Eagle Team every so often set up on 34th and 3rd Westbound on the M34/A in the mornings. The only consistent place I see them is on Union Tpke and Main Street on Thursday evenings for the Q44, except most of the time they just sit in their van doing nothing. I only occasionally see them actually check anything. I think back in June they actually checked the Q44 I was on one time. Happened to be a very nice "officer" for once that checked my ticket.

I normally don't take the M34 that far east, but have here and there for the BxM1, but I'm serious. In all of the years I have used that line, I have never been checked. I think the M79 was the line I had been checked on the most, but I haven't used that line in a few years.

@JubaionBx12+SBS Listen, it's a well known fact that the Bronx and Staten Island local bus lines suffer from high farebeating, and the reality is it impacts how much service lines like the Bx12 gets. Just telling it like it is. I've taken local buses in Queens too and I see the least amount of farebeating there. My point about it being crowded was that it's no secret that it's one of the busiest lines in the City, so when you talk about how overcrowded the Bx12 is, I can't help but think about it because it's probably the main reason the buses are so overcrowded. As someone who has used the line and paid, and had to wait a few buses to get on, it's an observation that shouldn't just be overlooked. 

I have used the M15 over the years and at least when I have taken it, I see people paying. Manhattan local lines definitely have farebeating because I see it on some lines and have noted it here, but these lines aren't packed like the Bx12 is so it's less of an issue. When you have the chronic crowding that you do on a line like the Bx12, I think everything should be looked at. I do know that the  and DOT are looking at how to further improve that line, but if you have more people hopping on and not paying, it may not matter much unless they address that issue. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[paulrivera]

52 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Going back to the Bx12, don't they have bus lanes that run the length of the line?

Fordham Road's had the bus lanes since SBS started, but between all the traffic and jaywalking and what have you, those lanes aren't much of a factor.

Pelham Parkway's bus lanes were finished fairly recently and move much better than the Fordham end.

27 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I do know that the  and DOT are looking at how to further improve that line, but if you have more people hopping on and not paying, it may not matter much unless they address that issue. 

I know they're looking into re-arranging the Pelham Bay Park stops, but that probably won't do much in the grand scheme of things. They put in a bus priority signal by the 207th bridge some time ago and that didn't do a whole lot either...

Fordham's pretty much the big problem. Everyone drives there, everyone walks over there, and everyone takes the bus there. The area is so popular I've seen 5th and Madison move more smoothly during rush hour than Fordham Road at 3 in the afternoon. And there are times where everyone wants to go to Bay Plaza and 207 too, which only worsens the problem the Bx12 has.

[NBTA]

6 hours ago, paulrivera said:

With so many students and their caretakers being reliant on the bus system in the Bronx, rush hour actually goes from 2pm to 6pm on the bus side.

Go to Fordham Plaza at 3pm and wait for either Bx12 (which way you go doesn't matter). More often than not you won't be able to get on the first bus that gets there.

Man, rush hour can start as early as 1PM up here, and end as late as 8-9PM. I’ve got on the local Bx1 at 10:30 at night and it’s SRO after 149th Street, two stops in.

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, paulrivera said:

Fordham Road's had the bus lanes since SBS started, but between all the traffic and jaywalking and what have you, those lanes aren't much of a factor.

Pelham Parkway's bus lanes were finished fairly recently and move much better than the Fordham end.

I know they're looking into re-arranging the Pelham Bay Park stops, but that probably won't do much in the grand scheme of things. They put in a bus priority signal by the 207th bridge some time ago and that didn't do a whole lot either...

Fordham's pretty much the big problem. Everyone drives there, everyone walks over there, and everyone takes the bus there. The area is so popular I've seen 5th and Madison move more smoothly during rush hour than Fordham Road at 3 in the afternoon. And there are times where everyone wants to go to Bay Plaza and 207 too, which only worsens the problem the Bx12 has.

All of those bus lanes should have cameras to stop the abuse of vehicles using them. As for the mall, I have never been. Easier to go up to Westchester, esp. for me. lol

[paulrivera]

6 hours ago, NBTA said:

Man, rush hour can start as early as 1PM up here, and end as late as 8-9PM. I’ve got on the local Bx1 at 10:30 at night and it’s SRO after 149th Street, two stops in.

You’re not kidding. Since September I’ve taken an express bus in the afternoon out of Manhattan during the week twice (a BxM1 and a BxM10) and both times I’ve been caught up in traffic in the Bronx, while traffic in Manhattan actually moves along. And these were trips between 1 and 2 in the afternoon.

i think to myself “how is this even possible?”

[Lawrence St]

15 hours ago, paulrivera said:

With so many students and their caretakers being reliant on the bus system in the Bronx, rush hour actually goes from 2pm to 6pm on the bus side.

Go to Fordham Plaza at 3pm and wait for either Bx12 (which way you go doesn't matter). More often than not you won't be able to get on the first bus that gets there.

Same thing with the M60. When I lived in Astoria, it was impossible to get on a bus at Steinway St.

[Michael J Q Last Bus]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Same thing with the M60. When I lived in Astoria, it was impossible to get on a bus at Steinway St.

Right! When I lived by 94th Ave using the M60 SBS or Q19, I swear I had to go down the Astoria BLVD to catch a bus

[trainfan22]

1567 was on the reverse peak SIM1C this afternoon.