BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[Lawrence St]

16 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I suspect that with OMNY and all-door boarding, they won't be calling those "improved" limiteds SBS (or conversely, maybe all limiteds will be called SBS)

But I also think they may try their hand at doing it Queens-style (make routes like say, the B63 into those green-style local routes, and make crosstown routes like the B35, B8, B6, and B82 into those orange-style limited-stop routes). But I can definitely see some type of restructuring in store for the B6, B82, and B103.

All door boarding is going to be really problematic because fare evaders will sky rocket, and unless they're going to hire more eagle teams, they're going to run a deficit.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

20 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

All door boarding is going to be really problematic because fare evaders will sky rocket, and unless they're going to hire more eagle teams, they're going to run a deficit.

That has been the main reason why they haven't been running to make all local bus lines all door, because they know they don't have a plan in place yet to address fare beating.

Quote

We must exercise diligence in considering all the operational and cost implications, in addition to the benefits, in evaluating a possible future decision to expand [all-door boarding] beyond SBS routes,” said New York City Transit Executive Vice President Craig Cipriano. He added that the agency was particularly concerned about fare evasion.

https://www.amny.com/lifestyle/travel/mta-wants-to-put-more-cops-on-buses-to-lure-riders-back-crack-down-on-fare-evasion/

I've called them out a number of times at hearings about this very issue. If they are going to raise the fares, they need to address their fare beating problem, which according to them is north of $200 million annually.

[paulrivera]

31 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

All door boarding is going to be really problematic because fare evaders will sky rocket, and unless they're going to hire more eagle teams, they're going to run a deficit.

 

5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That has been the main reason why they haven't been running to make all local bus lines all door, because they know they don't have a plan in place yet to address fare beating.

https://www.amny.com/lifestyle/travel/mta-wants-to-put-more-cops-on-buses-to-lure-riders-back-crack-down-on-fare-evasion/

I've called them out a number of times at hearings about this very issue. If they are going to raise the fares, they need to address their fare beating problem, which according to them is north of $200 million annually.

Watch the just give up on making every route all-door and just keep them on the SBS routes. Then they'll convert a handful of routes to SBS in order to placate people and call it a day.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

35 minutes ago, JubaionBx12+SBS said:

To be honest, post-covid I have used the express bus more so than local buses. I just don't like the cost inefficiency created by using a separate fleet of coach buses for what is primarily rush hour service. I support running articulated buses on express routes since they can be used on local routes as well. 

On the local bus end, I barely use the things. I have only taken the Bx12 +SBS and the Q50 within the past 2 years and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've used the latter. Now, you can come at me all you want but I am one of the motorists causing the surge in traffic we've seen in the city. In the summer of 2019 I bought my first vehicle and since the pandemic I've been driving as my primary commute method. The only time I don't drive these days are some days when I opt to use the subway to go to work to avoid traffic. The return trip is when I'm most likely to use a bus and as I said it's more likely to be an express bus (BxM7 or 10) than a local bus. I commute from LIC so I will get off the subway at either 5 Av/53rd or Lex/86 and walk to the express bus from those stops.

 

33 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Right, I'd rather the express lines use buses like they did before the takeover, with suburban buses

The  made the change over to coach buses because riders overall found them more comfortable. If you're asking people to pay more and calling it a "premium service" then it should be a premium service. NJ Transit uses coach buses as well for their express bus service. Nothing unusual about it. Some trips are over two hours one way.

There should be a difference, just like the LIRR and Metro-North have different seating than the subways.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

15 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

 

Watch the just give up on making every route all-door and just keep them on the SBS routes. Then they'll convert a handful of routes to SBS in order to placate people and call it a day.

Everyone is talking about limited vs SBS. I had a discussion with two DOT reps in a meeting with the  in 2019. I was asking them about the SBS countdown clocks and why those couldn't be used for the express bus lines. They noted that those clocks are specific to the "SBS brand". Given that the  gets federal funding for the SBS lines (SBS lines are considered BRT (Bus Rapid Transit)), don't expect any Limited Stop lines to pop up anytime soon. The SBS brand allows the  to cut back on a number of costs (ever wonder why they are able to get new buses on SBS lines so frequently)? It's all paid for by federal funds, so they would be stupid not to take the money. I believe the SBS countdown clocks are too (paid for with federal funds). The regular countdown clocks that aren't SBS are paid for out of budgets of local councilmen/councilwomen and they just try to prioritize certain stops. You will notice for this reason that some areas have more of them than others, such as the Upper East Side. Those elected officials allocate more funding for those clocks. I'm talking about the lollipop style countdown clocks like the one below.

There has also been talk about the SBS brand itself and will it still exist once all-door boarding comes online for all local buses (if it happens). Maybe the name changes, but they will still want that funding, trust me.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Lawrence St]

23 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That has been the main reason why they haven't been running to make all local bus lines all door, because they know they don't have a plan in place yet to address fare beating.

https://www.amny.com/lifestyle/travel/mta-wants-to-put-more-cops-on-buses-to-lure-riders-back-crack-down-on-fare-evasion/

I've called them out a number of times at hearings about this very issue. If they are going to raise the fares, they need to address their fare beating problem, which according to them is north of $200 million annually.

Careful, the young folk will scream at you for saying fare evasion is a problem...

[Future ENY OP]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

I don't really see the MTA having 2 SBS routes on Flatlands av. out there in Canarsie.... The dynamic wouldn't be the same as with the Q52/Q53 for example, since the former is basically a short turn variant of the latter...

If they would try their hand at SBS-ing the B6, they may jump stupid & have the thing stay on Av. J from the west, all the way to Flatlands, to then continue on Flatlands doing the regular route to the , where they'd likely terminate the thing.... Only local service would run the full route, basically saying f*** you to at least, what, 25% of the route's riderbase.......

If not for leaving the routing alone (back when that construction along 3rd av. was in its early stages), I would've temporarily had the thing run on Flatbush av. & go nonstop from the Junction to Barclay's Center (or have it make 1 courtesy stop at Empire for the Brighton line (and the Franklin av as a bonus)), instead of that 7th av > 9th st > 5th av > Flatbush av. crap.....

Something else that wouldn't have happened with Command is the influx of service that the many people that utilize the B103 currently benefits from, since the takeover....

Anyway, running buses via Smith/Court - Hamilton av, to eventually get to the Prospect Expwy.? Ouch, that would be torture.... That would not be worth it, just to have some sort of B103 variant that wouldn't serve those stops along 3rd/4th.....

You're right when it comes to Court vs, Smith, but the other facet of what you're wondering about would be too important to be ignored.... There are too many motorists in Brooklyn that done caught on to that quote-unquote Gowanus Expwy. bypass (the whole 3rd av - Hamilton av - BQE bit) for such a bypass to be effective for those seeking faster service on the B103 to/from Downtown... Once upon a time, Hamilton av. used to be dead as shit (traffic-wise), but those days are toast...

Here's the bigger problem here that I see: You already have Flatbush & East New York already utilizing SBS services- B44/46/82. It would be hard for the MTA to have Ulmer Park as a 3rd depot in the Brooklyn Division to become SBS. But, if TA decides to designate UP SBS for the B6, 2 changes I'd like to see is  1) go via Avenue J throughout the route would be the best and logical thing to do and or 2) head via Avenue H to the Junction with a stop on East 32nd/Avenue H.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, Lawrence St said:

Careful, the young folk will scream at you for saying fare evasion is a problem...

It's the  that has been saying it constantly at Board Meetings, so when they say they need to raise the fare, I just quote their own data and throw it back at them, which definitely pisses some of them off. I mean what's the point of saying that you're losing $200+ million annually if you're not doing anything about the problem? In short, I insinuate that they should not expect the paying public to make up for their inability to collect fares from those that aren't paying.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Here's the bigger problem here that I see: You already have Flatbush & East New York already utilizing SBS services- B44/46/82. It would be hard for the MTA to have Ulmer Park as a 3rd depot in the Brooklyn Division to become SBS. But, if TA decides to designate UP SBS for the B6, 2 changes I'd like to see is  1) go via Avenue J throughout the route would be the best and logical thing to do and or 2) head via Avenue H to the Junction with a stop on East 32nd/Avenue H.

Why would it be hard to have another depot have an SBS line? I mean all it consists of is having SBS branded buses, all door boarding and payment in advance (unless you use OMNY). There is nothing that special about SBS that it can't spread to other lines and quite frankly, from an operational standpoint, it means lower operational costs for the . Buses will move faster and travel times will decrease, something the   wants. Now maybe the union may not like that for obvious reasons, but that's another story.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[QM1to6Ave]

5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It should be 10 minutes max all day just as it is during the week. I will look into this but any changes would have to be approved by the union and since the Winter pick is already here, nothing will happen until likely next year at the earliest. Next time I have a conference call, I'll bring it up.

Thank you! It's been like this for as long as I can remember, so I understand change might be slow lol. Any improvement would be great!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, QM1to6Ave said:

Thank you! It's been like this for as long as I can remember, so I understand change might be slow lol. Any improvement would be great!

I actually mentioned it to Mark Holmes in a meeting. Told me it was complicated, without going into details (don't think he was at liberty to go into details). I'm not sure if there are agreements in place from when the private lines ran or what, but yes, some of these schedules have not changed in many years and given that the  agreed after the first audit (and the second one I pushed the City Comptroller for), they really should be changed. Over the summer, I got them to make a few changes to some SIM lines for the run times along 42nd St, but even that small change required a discussion with the union. Before that, they were saying that they didn't want to make any changes, as they wanted to evaluate ridership, etc.

[B35 via Church]

46 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I suspect that with OMNY and all-door boarding, they won't be calling those "improved" limiteds SBS (or conversely, maybe all limiteds will be called SBS)

But I also think they may try their hand at doing it Queens-style (make routes like say, the B63 into those green-style local routes, and make crosstown routes like the B35, B8, B6, and B82 into those orange-style limited-stop routes). But I can definitely see some type of restructuring in store for the B6, B82, and B103.

As it pertains to the impending borough redesigns, that's another issue altogether.... I think the B6 is going to get split somehow, over having it SBS'd, or idem quod LTD service (a la those red-colored Queens routes in the redesign) from end to end anyway....

29 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

All door boarding is going to be really problematic because fare evaders will sky rocket, and unless they're going to hire more eagle teams, they're going to run a deficit.

I'd say that's what the MTA ultimately wants; makes it easier to cut service....

3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The  made the change over to coach buses because riders overall found them more comfortable. If you're asking people to pay more and calling it a "premium service" then it should be a premium service. NJ Transit uses coach buses as well for their express bus service. Nothing unusual about it. Some trips are over two hours one way.

There should be a difference, just like the LIRR and Metro-North have different seating than the subways.

I won't get too caught up on the terminology (premium) per se, but I have to agree with retaining/running MCI's on express buses... Passenger comfort should be a factor when it comes to providing public transit service.... FWIW, I miss those local buses that Ulmer Park used to have with the cushioned seats... In contrast, I wouldn't wish those f***ing raggedy ass hard-seated O5 CNG's Spring Creek, and LGA (IINM) had on anyone's express bus on my worst enemy.... Of course, we can't have anything nice in this city for too long a period, so hard-ass seating, local buses fleet wide it is

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's the  that has been saying it constantly at Board Meetings, so when they say they need to raise the fare, I just quote their own data and throw it back at them, which definitely pisses some of them off. I mean what's the point of saying that you're losing $200+ million annually if you're not doing anything about the problem? In short, I insinuate that they should not expect the paying public to make up for their inability to collect fares from those that aren't paying.

I believe it to be nothing more than lip service whenever the MTA confesses that fare beating is a problem.... After all this time, why now? I don't want to hear. oh better late than never either, when we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars perpetually being lost.... Scrooge McDuck doesn't have that type of money to piss away.... The issue is one that should have been nipped in the bud, yet an entity that's as large as the MTA continues to remain passive about it... For all the fare revenues that have been lost by rampant farebeating in the past 2-3 years alone, let alone the past 1-2 decades alone, you would think that there would be a certain amount of diligence going into quelling the issue... Eagle Team AFAIC wasn't/isn't much more than window dressing; kind of like show & tell back in our elementary school years.... I strongly believe that the MTA has thrown their hands up when it comes to farebeating... Sure, we don't need anymore Edwin Thomas situations, but out there in NICE territory, those b/o's do not play when it comes to farebeaters... Yes, the drivers aren't fare enforcers (by job description), but when a b/o threatens to take a bus OOS b/c of some numbnut with a fabricated sob story engages in theft of service, that's when other paying passengers start getting pissed... One group of people you don't want to mess with, are PO'd NYC commuters - especially when they act in unison....

I've said this before... There is a lack of pride when it comes to public transportation in this city; it's merely nothing more than a means to an end - and I'd largely pin the root cause of it on the MTA... They've created this us vs. them (passengers) mentality - and they use their poor blue collar workers as foot soldiers in this front line battle.... In turn, over the course of time, a culture of farebeating has arisen... There isn't a whole supported culture of farebeating within patrons, of or in cities where the riding public have a certain level of pride in public transit...

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Here's the bigger problem here that I see: You already have Flatbush & East New York already utilizing SBS services- B44/46/82. It would be hard for the MTA to have Ulmer Park as a 3rd depot in the Brooklyn Division to become SBS.

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is here?

SBS isn't much more than a service type for a bus route at the end of the day... You're speaking as if SBS defines a depot or something...

4 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

But, if TA decides to designate UP SBS for the B6, 2 changes I'd like to see is  1) go via Avenue J throughout the route would be the best and logical thing to do and or 2) head via Avenue H to the Junction with a stop on East 32nd/Avenue H.

Bypassing the Junction would be counterproductive for too many B6 riders, especially from the east....

If they were to turn the the eastern half of the B6 into an SBS route, I'd run that sucker nonstop from Utica to the Junction via Av. H....

[checkmatechamp13]

5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The  made the change over to coach buses because riders overall found them more comfortable. If you're asking people to pay more and calling it a "premium service" then it should be a premium service. NJ Transit uses coach buses as well for their express bus service. Nothing unusual about it. Some trips are over two hours one way.

There should be a difference, just like the LIRR and Metro-North have different seating than the subways.

The #107/108 and #126 use use local buses.

[Lawrence St]

12 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The #107/108 and #126 use use local buses.

This. New Jersey Transit is not a good example because they be throwing whatever on whenever. 

Order new local buses with coach seating and run them everywhere. Less maintenance hassle and more uniformity.

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

 

The  made the change over to coach buses because riders overall found them more comfortable. If you're asking people to pay more and calling it a "premium service" then it should be a premium service. NJ Transit uses coach buses as well for their express bus service. Nothing unusual about it. Some trips are over two hours one way.

There should be a difference, just like the LIRR and Metro-North have different seating than the subways.

The "premium service" amenities found in express coaches can be easily implemented into the current local buses models being ordered by the MTA.

Had express buses used XD40s/XD60s, LFS/LFSA, you'd be able to implement the same recline/big comfy seats, with overhead heat, reading lights, charging ports, and tinted windows. The low floor concept would also make ADA accessibility MUCH MUCH easier and have less of an impact on the level of service inside the bus. Also would make maintenance MUCH easier across the board. 

Only issue is that only artics would have the best advantage for express service, as local buses would require more frequency to provide the same amount of seats. However, artics have issues with the snow so if the express fleet was all artic, winter months would be an issue. If they can implement technologies for artics to handle snow (like the XE60s apparently so far) then maybe would could see the MTA switch the express fleet to premium articulated low floor buses. 

[SoSpectacular]

6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

All door boarding is going to be really problematic because fare evaders will sky rocket, and unless they're going to hire more eagle teams, they're going to run a deficit.

It won't work unless there is a way to confirm that everyone on board has paid. That's where OMNY comes in once the MetroCard is phased out along with cash fare payments going the way of the dodo.

At least I would assume that is what the final plan will be...

[paulrivera]

36 minutes ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

the express fleet was all artic, winter months would be an issue.

'Issue' would be an understatement.

Under current protocol, once bus operations go into winter weather mode there would be no express bus service at all.

You might get away with some loaners on the weekend (Eastchester, CP, and Spring Creek would probably make due with the 40-footers they have already) but during a normal weekday this would be a huge problem.

[paulrivera]

Sorry for the double post, but Jesus what a mess.

[Theli11]

48 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

Sorry for the double post, but Jesus what a mess.

Has to do with this: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/police-activity-shuts-down-traffic-on-rfk-bridge-ny-only/3422362

TL;DR: Was a shooting on the Bridge, so they cut down some lanes on it. Likely a butt ton a traffic on the Triboro thus, bunched up M60s.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Theli11

[SoSpectacular]

1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

Sorry for the double post, but Jesus what a mess.

Wow. They're definitely going to have to put a lot of these guys in place after that

[QM1to6Ave]

5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I actually mentioned it to Mark Holmes in a meeting. Told me it was complicated, without going into details (don't think he was at liberty to go into details). I'm not sure if there are agreements in place from when the private lines ran or what, but yes, some of these schedules have not changed in many years and given that the  agreed after the first audit (and the second one I pushed the City Comptroller for), they really should be changed. Over the summer, I got them to make a few changes to some SIM lines for the run times along 42nd St, but even that small change required a discussion with the union. Before that, they were saying that they didn't want to make any changes, as they wanted to evaluate ridership, etc.

Yeah, this is one of those things that you've described about other routes, where B/O's either leave the terminal late because they know there is too much time on the paddle, or they drive like they normally would and potentially end up with complaints from riders at the last stop who get to the stop when the schedule shows the bus should arrive 25 mins after leaving the terminal, but the bus already passed 10 mins before because it only actually takes 15 mins to get there. Catch-22 situation. 

[trainfan22]

Speaking of express bus equipment, MTA used surbuban seated transit buses on express routes for decades until they switched over to MCI in the late 90s. Anyone know what caused the MTA to switch to OTR coaches? 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by trainfan22

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

The "premium service" amenities found in express coaches can be easily implemented into the current local buses models being ordered by the MTA.

Had express buses used XD40s/XD60s, LFS/LFSA, you'd be able to implement the same recline/big comfy seats, with overhead heat, reading lights, charging ports, and tinted windows. The low floor concept would also make ADA accessibility MUCH MUCH easier and have less of an impact on the level of service inside the bus. Also would make maintenance MUCH easier across the board. 

Only issue is that only artics would have the best advantage for express service, as local buses would require more frequency to provide the same amount of seats. However, artics have issues with the snow so if the express fleet was all artic, winter months would be an issue. If they can implement technologies for artics to handle snow (like the XE60s apparently so far) then maybe would could see the MTA switch the express fleet to premium articulated low floor buses. 

I forgot who it was on here, but the last time this issue was brought up they complained that "they don't want their luxury coaches being used by local folk", basically saying they don't want standard paying customers using their buses.

This was in response to when MTA was putting Prevos on the S52 and S79 during school days.

But im going to have to side with you on this one, a lot of these amenities can be brought over to the local fleet. Look at CT Transit, they have a fleet of 40+ suburban D40LF's and no one complains.

[Cait Sith]

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

This. New Jersey Transit is not a good example because they be throwing whatever on whenever. 

Order new local buses with coach seating and run them everywhere. Less maintenance hassle and more uniformity.

They've been doing that for years.