SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Kamen Rider]

4 hours ago, randomnewyorker23 said:

tbf why are they trying to deinterline the IRT lines in Brooklyn, when Broadway/DeKalb needs the most attention. 

Because they rebuilt Gold Street Interlocking in the 1950s (which is why Myrtle Avenue closed) to fix the problems Rodgers Junction is stuck with because of the track geometry and the tunnel layouts. 

A lot fewer trains coming off the bridge need to wait compared to trains navigating into/out of Franklin Avenue.

 

[Lex]

59 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

Because they rebuilt Gold Street Interlocking in the 1950s (which is why Myrtle Avenue closed) to fix the problems Rodgers Junction is stuck with because of the track geometry and the tunnel layouts. 

A lot fewer trains coming off the bridge need to wait compared to trains navigating into/out of Franklin Avenue.

 

And yet people want to tack Utica Avenue onto Eastern Parkway...

[CenSin]

2 hours ago, Lex said:

And yet people want to tack Utica Avenue onto Eastern Parkway...

Not many other places they could stick it. It’s not like Fulton Street has any provisions for a track connection. So the next opportunity north would be a non-existent IND Second System trunk.

[Lex]

3 hours ago, CenSin said:

Not many other places they could stick it. It’s not like Fulton Street has any provisions for a track connection. So the next opportunity north would be a non-existent IND Second System trunk.

As far as I'm concerned, any proposal to tack Utica Avenue onto Eastern Parkway as the latter is now willfully ignores the problem Nostrand Avenue currently faces, not to mention somehow making operations even more complex with Nostrand Avenue in the mix. In essence, as long as Eastern Parkway continues to exist as a directional two-over-two, a decision would need to be made over whether to keep or drop Nostrand Avenue. Keeping it means looking at other options for Utica Avenue, while going forward with Utica Avenue means dropping Nostrand Avenue. Combined with whatever deinterlining proposals, this could result in 24/7  service down Utica Avenue and  service to New Lots Avenue, while the  and  both run in Brooklyn on weekdays (with the  in particular also gaining that Utica Avenue coverage but losing all weekend service and mid-late evening/overnight service while all  service ends at the current Utica Avenue station). Weekend service would be every 6 minutes on the  and  while the  ends at Bowling Green every 12 minutes.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't try to feed Utica Avenue into Fulton Street, anyway.

[LGA Link N Train]

9 hours ago, Lex said:

In essence, as long as Eastern Parkway continues to exist as a directional two-over-two, a decision would need to be made over whether to keep or drop Nostrand Avenue. Keeping it means looking at other options for Utica Avenue, while going forward with Utica Avenue means dropping Nostrand Avenue.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by dropping Nostrand Avenue?

[Kamen Rider]

2 hours ago, LGA Link N Train said:

Could you elaborate on what you mean by dropping Nostrand Avenue?

Seems to me like suggesting abandoning the Nostrand Avenue Line…

 

which is unnecessary. 
 

the Utica extension would just operate with the existing headway of whichever line is picked to operate over it.

[TrainGamingKing9928]

2 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

the Utica extension would just operate with the existing headway of whichever line is picked to operate over it.

And in the case of the current setup, it would probably be the existing headways of the  train since the Utica Avenue line provisions are from the local tracks. New switches would have to be installed to allow the  to run to New Lots full-time.

[CenSin]

16 hours ago, Lex said:

going forward with Utica Avenue means dropping Nostrand Avenue

16 hours ago, Lex said:

For what it's worth, I wouldn't try to feed Utica Avenue into Fulton Street, anyway.

Connecting the Nostrand Avenue branch to Fulton Street would appear to be more feasible than a new Utica Avenue branch.

1. The Nostrand Avenue station on Fulton Street isn’t centered on Nostrand Avenue. Nostrand Avenue proper is at the far eastern extreme of the station.
2. There are two unused track ways on the lower level between the local tracks. That could be used for a ramp to connect the Nostrand Avenue west of the station.

I.O.W., they could hypothetically do for Nostrand Avenue on Fulton Street what they are proposing to do for Utica Avenue on Eastern Parkway.

Zooming back out to the thousand feet aerial view, this hypothetical design poses an operational challenge: Fulton Street would be feeding two Rockaway branches, one Ozone Park branch, and one southeastern Brooklyn branch into Cranberry Street. Somebody is getting shafted.

Edited August 13 by CenSin

[Wallyhorse]

29 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Connecting the Nostrand Avenue branch to Fulton Street would appear to be more feasible than a new Utica Avenue branch.

1. The Nostrand Avenue station on Fulton Street isn’t centered on Nostrand Avenue. Nostrand Avenue proper is at the far eastern extreme of the station.
2. There are two unused track ways on the lower level between the local tracks. That could be used for a ramp to connect the Nostrand Avenue west of the station.

I.O.W., they could hypothetically do for Nostrand Avenue on Fulton Street what they are proposing to do for Utica Avenue on Eastern Parkway.

Zooming back out to the thousand feet aerial view, this hypothetical design poses an operational challenge: Fulton Street would be feeding two Rockaway branches, one Ozone Park branch, and one southeastern Brooklyn branch into Cranberry Street. Somebody is getting shafted.

This could be solved with perhaps making this Nostrand Avenue branch part of a Brooklyn extension of the that could in this scenario run through a new State Street tunnel that would at Clinton turn onto there and then Schermerhorn Street Station on Schermerhorn between Clinton and Court Street to the west of the existing transit museum, then running under that and ramping up to use the as-present unused tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and from there running on the local tracks on Fulton to this new Nostrand connection and serve as the Fulton line.  Maybe then you have a second SAS local line operate via this to Euclid that would allow the and  to both run express on Fulton with the  all times to Lefferts (except late nights when the SAS line would be extended there) and the split on a 4-3 basis between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park (except late nights when the current Rockaway Park would run). 

[Kamen Rider]

Could you PLEASE leave that in the fantasy thread…

there is no room to thread such a connection into the existing track layout, where you effectively have FOUR levels of tunnel to navigate. All of which will involve expensive digging under buildings. 
 

you can’t just point at a spot and say “Build a tunnel”… it doesn’t work like that.

 

[LGA Link N Train]

20 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

Seems to me like suggesting abandoning the Nostrand Avenue Line…

 

which is unnecessary. 
 

the Utica extension would just operate with the existing headway of whichever line is picked to operate over it.

Thats what I’m getting from Lex’s post which I will have to agree with you. 
 

The way I see it, services using the Nostrand (Rogers) Junction WILL have to be altered in some way, shape or form to allow for Utica to feasibly be built and connected to the existing network. That will inevitably lead to a change in how Weekend/Late Night Service is handled on the IRT. Abandoning the Nostrand Branch does nothing other than a disservice to those who rely on the lines that serve it.

Edited August 13 by LGA Link N Train

[Wallyhorse]

On 8/13/2024 at 7:29 AM, Kamen Rider said:

Could you PLEASE leave that in the fantasy thread…

there is no room to thread such a connection into the existing track layout, where you effectively have FOUR levels of tunnel to navigate. All of which will involve expensive digging under buildings. 
 

you can’t just point at a spot and say “Build a tunnel”… it doesn’t work like that.

 

I was simply responding to how IMO it could be done and incorporating the SAS to Fulton (which I still would do by having it on Fulton go to Euclid while the and both can be express lines in Brooklyn).  What you brought it concerning Nostrand is probably more accurate and if there were an SAS to Brooklyn, I would just do it the way I noted (full-time to Euclid and extended late nights to Lefferts).  

[CenSin]

4 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I was simply responding to how IMO it could be done and incorporating the SAS to Fulton (which I still would do by having it on Fulton go to Euclid while the and both can be express lines in Brooklyn).

In the context of the recent discussion though, there’s no possibility where SAS would get involved. Given that the MTA can only do piecemeal projects now, if there is a long chain of dependencies, you can depend on it never getting done.

With your specific proposal:

1. The Eastern Parkway-Utica Avenue connection can’t be done because the junction at Nostrand Avenue introduces a bottleneck. So Nostrand Avenue must be diverted to Fulton Street.
2. The Fulton Street-Nostrand Avenue connection can’t be done because there is no capacity through Cranberry Street. So a new East River tunnel is needed, connecting to SAS.
3. The East River tunnel to SAS cannot be done, because SAS phase 4 doesn’t exist. So SAS phase 4 is needed, connecting to SAS phase 3.
4. SAS phase 4 cannot be done because SAS phase 3 doesn’t exist. So SAS phase 3 is needed, connecting to phases 1 and 2.
5. SAS phase 3 cannot be done because SAS phase 2 doesn’t exist. So SAS phase 2 needs to be done.

You can ask yourself this: what are the odds that all 5 rounds of changes survive the pols?

A good, actionable proposal has nearly zero serial dependencies.

[Kamen Rider]

anyway… Halsey Street is next up for the safety fences this weekend.

Edited August 14 by Kamen Rider

[Trainmaster5]

On 8/13/2024 at 1:27 PM, LGA Link N Train said:

Thats what I’m getting from Lex’s post which I will have to agree with you. 
 

The way I see it, services using the Nostrand (Rogers) Junction WILL have to be altered in some way, shape or form to allow for Utica to feasibly be built and connected to the existing network. That will inevitably lead to a change in how Weekend/Late Night Service is handled on the IRT. Abandoning the Nostrand Branch does nothing other than a disservice to those who rely on the lines that serve it.

Actually the Utica-Eastern Parkway connection poses little or no problem on paper in theory.  The Seventh Ave  line will enter the station at Utica on the N/B local track and continue northbound toward the junction where the N/B  will join the procession toward Manhattan. Meanwhile back at Utica the N/B  from New Lots will follow the  into the station cross over to the express track and join the  headed Manhattan-bound. The premise of the ATS signal system is to eliminate any potential bottlenecks at Utica or the junction. It amazes me that some railfans complain about service across the junction but my RTO coworkers and I knew the concept when we left school car. For the last 15 years or so my fellow RTO have tried to impart something very simple to the forum. Obviously some folks have never traveled by air around the country. Look at LGA, CLT, MCO, BWI and you might see the point we were taught and I'm trying to explain. New Lots, Utica and Flatbush are boarding gates so to speak. Planes load up and proceed to a flight line. They line up one by one until they are given permission to hit the runway and take off. For almost 30 years I worked the  from Utica, New Lots, Flatbush or even coming S/B around the Bowling Green loop yet I was almost always on time at Nevins and/or Bowling Green. Of course if they're still using the templates that my rabbi wrote 30 + years ago for the  line they won't mesh with the ATS signal system now in use. It's not only the East Side I'm talking about either. Has anyone realized the problems caused by two  trains headed N/B back to back along Lenox Avenue with a  trailing them ? First train makes a station stop at 145th St. Second  leaves 135th and can't go anywhere while the following  is stuck outside of 135th St. Unless Lenox cuts into someone's lunch time and pushes a train out early or makes an unscheduled layup there's your bottleneck. My people compare the impatience of some railfans to the non-drivers who race to the next red light. For what purpose? Just my opinion and that of some of my RTO people. You're entitled to yours. No hard feelings and no offense intended. Carry on.

[Kamen Rider]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Unless Lenox cuts into someone's lunch time and pushes a train out early or makes an unscheduled layup there's your bottleneck.

i mean, that is the central issue, the things they don't see, the conversations they don't hear and are not privy to. 

I like to point out how they reacted to something that happened a little while back:

An R143 and R160 mixed consist got sent out in service on the J.

The fans all thought "Hey the MTA has made these trains compatible. Yay, we're going to see this more often now..."

 

They didn't know this was an accident.

They didn't know that this train was a mechanical monstrosity.

They didn't know that should have never been allowed out of East New York Yard.

They didn't know the trains systems began to fail. 

They didn't know the yard dispatcher got into serious hot water. 

 

All they saw was a train configuration they'd never seen before, and, let's be honest, that's all the transit fan rumor mill needs 99.9999% percent of the time. 

 

[LGA Link N Train]

8 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Actually the Utica-Eastern Parkway connection poses little or no problem on paper in theory.  The Seventh Ave  line will enter the station at Utica on the N/B local track and continue northbound toward the junction where the N/B  will join the procession toward Manhattan. Meanwhile back at Utica the N/B  from New Lots will follow the  into the station cross over to the express track and join the  headed Manhattan-bound. The premise of the ATS signal system is to eliminate any potential bottlenecks at Utica or the junction. It amazes me that some railfans complain about service across the junction but my RTO coworkers and I knew the concept when we left school car.

In theory, like you said. Now while that would be the most simplistic way to run a Hypothetical Utica Service, that would mean in practice, that means the Utica Line would need a Maintenance Facility for Rolling Stock on the  to be maintained if  its moved out of Livonia and a new Switch would need to be built somewhere between Sutter-Rutland and Utica as to not have conflicting moves with N/B ‘s and N/B ‘s entering Utica.

8 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

For the last 15 years or so my fellow RTO have tried to impart something very simple to the forum. Obviously some folks have never traveled by air around the country. Look at LGA, CLT, MCO, BWI and you might see the point we were taught and I'm trying to explain. New Lots, Utica and Flatbush are boarding gates so to speak. Planes load up and proceed to a flight line. They line up one by one until they are given permission to hit the runway and take off. For almost 30 years I worked the  from Utica, New Lots, Flatbush or even coming S/B around the Bowling Green loop yet I was almost always on time at Nevins and/or Bowling Green. Of course if they're still using the templates that my rabbi wrote 30+ years ago for the  line they won't mesh with the ATS signal system now in use. It's not only the East Side I'm talking about either. Has anyone realized the problems caused by two  trains headed N/B back to back along Lenox Avenue with a  trailing them? First train makes a station stop at 145th St. Second  leaves 135th and can't go anywhere while the following  is stuck outside of 135th St. Unless Lenox cuts into someone's lunch time and pushes a train out early or makes an unscheduled layup there's your bottleneck. My people compare the impatience of some railfans to the non-drivers who race to the next red light. For what purpose? Just my opinion and that of some of my RTO people. You're entitled to yours. No hard feelings and no offense intended. Carry on.

I remember you mentioned the analogy about flight lines in your previous post when talking about how trains get their lineup when transversing through Rogers Junction. The more I think about it, the more I see your point. Now I do have a question about what I highlighted in Italic. Could the 2 N/B ‘s headed up Lenox be a result of the way the schedule is written or is it because a train or 2 was late that would end up causing that bunching between 145th and south of 135th and Lenox? If so, what would be the best way to remedy that situation?

[zacster]

If, a big if, Utica were ever built, they would in the plans make it possible for the trains to move around each other.  Just because the provision for the turnoff is from the local tracks NOW, doesn't mean that the construction won't include rebuilding the entire junction so that trains coming on either express or local can go to either New Lots or Utica without crossing in front of one another.  They won't make the same mistake they made at Rogers Ave.  And for that matter, maybe the only way this ever gets done is by rebuilding Rogers too as part of the project. 

As for a maintenance facility, the only place that would be feasible is where it crosses the tracks of the Bay Ridge branch, but that may be taken up by IBX, another theoretical line that may or may not ever get built. 

[Lex]

1 hour ago, zacster said:

If, a big if, Utica were ever built, they would in the plans make it possible for the trains to move around each other.  Just because the provision for the turnoff is from the local tracks NOW, doesn't mean that the construction won't include rebuilding the entire junction so that trains coming on either express or local can go to either New Lots or Utica without crossing in front of one another.  They won't make the same mistake they made at Rogers Ave.  And for that matter, maybe the only way this ever gets done is by rebuilding Rogers too as part of the project.

The Eastern Parkway line has the same fundamental issue at both points.

[Trainmaster5]

7 hours ago, LGA Link N Train said:

In theory, like you said. Now while that would be the most simplistic way to run a Hypothetical Utica Service, that would mean in practice, that means the Utica Line would need a Maintenance Facility for Rolling Stock on the  to be maintained if  its moved out of Livonia and a new Switch would need to be built somewhere between Sutter-Rutland and Utica as to not have conflicting moves with N/B ‘s and N/B ‘s entering Utica.

I remember you mentioned the analogy about flight lines in your previous post when talking about how trains get their lineup when transversing through Rogers Junction. The more I think about it, the more I see your point. Now I do have a question about what I highlighted in Italic. Could the 2 N/B ‘s headed up Lenox be a result of the way the schedule is written or is it because a train or 2 was late that would end up causing that bunching between 145th and south of 135th and Lenox? If so, what would be the best way to remedy that situation?

The double dose of the  trains was not a scheduled issue but a problem with the folks at Utica tower. The  from New Lots had a door problem at Utica which was overcome and the train proceeded N/B. The tower saw the second  at President and for some reason gave him the lineup. This was when the  ran from Flatbush to Lenox . What should have been done was to run the  express from Nostrand to Atlantic and putting it in place ahead of the second  . In other words Utica tower and Nevins tower blew their opportunity to get the trains back in place. The only other place to remedy the situation was for Times Square tower to get involved with the issue but they didn’t. Maybe because IIRC the supervisor in charge of the West Side wasn’t made aware of the problem until it was too late. Run the second  local until the trains could be put back in place. Of course this would interfere with the N/B  trains and the rule back then was to localize problems and not interfere with other services. I saw the end of the fiasco because I was in Lenox tower that night and the tower operator and the dispatcher showed me exactly what happened and what should have been done. Carry on.

[Calvin]

https://www.facebook.com/NYPD/posts/pfbid025jk9xa2HPZVfXTpDpY5jKZroF378uzTScNa2wRiS7TgsY2Ljw29GkKAUybKypMLml

Link shows the MTA employee was not an actual worker, but forged ID and does live streaming while on his adventures. The NYPD Transit SOD Special Projects officers came though to apprehend the impersonator. MTA equipment were shown as well. 

Edited August 16 by Calvin

[Kamen Rider]

12-9 at Mets Willets Point as the Mets game is ending…

this is going to be a mess…

[Lawrence St]

On 8/16/2024 at 7:26 PM, Calvin said:

https://www.facebook.com/NYPD/posts/pfbid025jk9xa2HPZVfXTpDpY5jKZroF378uzTScNa2wRiS7TgsY2Ljw29GkKAUybKypMLml

Link shows the MTA employee was not an actual worker, but forged ID and does live streaming while on his adventures. The NYPD Transit SOD Special Projects officers came though to apprehend the impersonator. MTA equipment were shown as well. 

Why do I feel like this is that guy on tiktok that goes around filming abandoned sections of the subway>

[Lawrence St]

On 8/16/2024 at 3:36 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

The double dose of the  trains was not a scheduled issue but a problem with the folks at Utica tower. The  from New Lots had a door problem at Utica which was overcome and the train proceeded N/B. The tower saw the second  at President and for some reason gave him the lineup. This was when the  ran from Flatbush to Lenox . What should have been done was to run the  express from Nostrand to Atlantic and putting it in place ahead of the second  . In other words Utica tower and Nevins tower blew their opportunity to get the trains back in place. The only other place to remedy the situation was for Times Square tower to get involved with the issue but they didn’t. Maybe because IIRC the supervisor in charge of the West Side wasn’t made aware of the problem until it was too late. Run the second  local until the trains could be put back in place. Of course this would interfere with the N/B  trains and the rule back then was to localize problems and not interfere with other services. I saw the end of the fiasco because I was in Lenox tower that night and the tower operator and the dispatcher showed me exactly what happened and what should have been done. Carry on.

The best way to fix the , which I greatly think they should still do, is connect it with the  at 167th St via the former 9th Av tunnels. Technology has advanced a lot since then and I'm sure they can expand the tunnels with minimum disruption to the buildings above.

[LGA Link N Train]

6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The best way to fix the , which I greatly think they should still do, is connect it with the  at 167th St via the former 9th Av tunnels. Technology has advanced a lot since then and I'm sure they can expand the tunnels with minimum disruption to the buildings above.

The Yankees Stadium stands in the way of the former 9th Avenue ROW