SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Wallyhorse]

4 hours ago, Mysterious2train said:

Looks like Broad Channel was a total mess back on Wednesday (Juneteenth) due to the large crowds heading to the Rockaways in the midst of the heat wave while the  was running a normal weekday schedule with 300 ft. long trains. Juneteenth is a recent holiday so I get the MTA hasn't really planned for it, but I hope next year the agency will at least plan full-length shuttles or something.

Saw your plan for the RBB off the SAS.  That is something I think needs to be looked at for the future.

More immediately, at least on weekends perhaps the could be extended to Rockaway Park (replacing the /) and run at shorter intervals to accommodate such.  

[darkstar8983]

The issue was that there was a lot of construction work on the  the whole weekend, with local-only service going uptown; which delayed southbound trains. The trains were not running on regular headways and making passengers schlep all the way down to Brooklyn on the  doesn’t do them justice. Maybe the  should be more frequent and be extended to Euclid Av, or run the  to Rockaway Blvd every 10 minutes so it connects to ALL  trains at a 1:1 ratio, as opposed to the current pattern where the  comes after 2  trains have come

[Lex]

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

The issue was that there was a lot of construction work on the  the whole weekend, with local-only service going uptown; which delayed southbound trains. The trains were not running on regular headways and making passengers schlep all the way down to Brooklyn on the  doesn’t do them justice. Maybe the  should be more frequent and be extended to Euclid Av, or run the  to Rockaway Blvd every 10 minutes so it connects to ALL  trains at a 1:1 ratio, as opposed to the current pattern where the  comes after 2  trains have come

That logic doesn't hold, as the day in question was a Wednesday.

 

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

More immediately, at least on weekends perhaps the could be extended to Rockaway Park (replacing the /) and run at shorter intervals to accommodate such.  

If you're going to extend the  anywhere, send it to Lefferts Boulevard and have the Lefferts Boulevard  intervals become Rockaway Park trains.

Of course, while rolling stock availability may be fine for this, the real issue is crew availability, which is absolutely not fine. Infrastructure-related work can -- and likely will -- also throw a monkey wrench in any plan of the sort.

[Kamen Rider]

4 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

They usually have the shuttle full length all summer long from Memorial day to Labor Day everyday unless that changed. That's insane with all those people waiting for the shuttle.

The so far this summer, no. C trains were long relaying via 80th street because we were replacing the switches on the yard lead. So the shuttle, even though full length, only went to broad channel.

4 hours ago, Mysterious2train said:

Isn't the full-length shuttle only on weekends? Could the MTA even spare the crews and cars needed for a full-length shuttle on weekdays in past years? Since Juneteenth only became a holiday very recently, I can understand the MTA not planning any additional service or altered service for the day. Hopefully they can avoid this next year and plan for full-length shuttles on Juneteenth moving forward.

It just so happened it coincided with a heat wave. It’s no so much “is it a holiday”, so much as “what is everyone else doing.” If most businesses are open, we have to operate at weekday levels and sometimes can’t devote the resources necessary. All those people could have just as much stayed on the A to get to the peninsula.

 

that being said, under normal circumstances, running the extended shuttle requires a lot of extra people. Switch train operators. Platform personnel. 
 

then there’s having the shuttle discharging at Rockaway Blvd, possibly holding up A service. 

[Wallyhorse]

9 hours ago, Lex said:

That logic doesn't hold, as the day in question was a Wednesday.

If you're going to extend the  anywhere, send it to Lefferts Boulevard and have the Lefferts Boulevard  intervals become Rockaway Park trains.

Of course, while rolling stock availability may be fine for this, the real issue is crew availability, which is absolutely not fine. Infrastructure-related work can -- and likely will -- also throw a monkey wrench in any plan of the sort.

I specifically said the because of how pols and residents around Lefferts would cry bloody murder if their precious one-seat express ride was taken away, even if in reality they could simply make a same platform transfer from the to the anywhere between Rockaway Boulevard and (cross-platform at) Euclid Avenue.  Regardless,  simply extending the to Lefferts or Rockaway Park and eliminate the need for the would be the way to do it.

[R32 3838]

9 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

The so far this summer, no. C trains were long relaying via 80th street because we were replacing the switches on the yard lead. So the shuttle, even though full length, only went to broad channel.

 

Yeah I know about the Long relay to 80th on weekends which is a GO that's going to end in July. I was talking about in the past.

[biGC323232]

12 hours ago, Lex said:

That logic doesn't hold, as the day in question was a Wednesday.

 

If you're going to extend the  anywhere, send it to Lefferts Boulevard and have the Lefferts Boulevard  intervals become Rockaway Park trains.

Of course, while rolling stock availability may be fine for this, the real issue is crew availability, which is absolutely not fine. Infrastructure-related work can -- and likely will -- also throw a monkey wrench in any plan of the sort.

I agree with u on this...This what should be done all times except late nights...And stop all this nonsense of ppl not wanting to lose they precious express service along lefferts branch(Which doesnt even starts until Euclid)  or there isnt enough ridership to warrent such a service (Which use to run back in the day)...Or the  being extended creating this bottleneck at euclid which i never bought into anyways...

Edited June 24 by biGC323232

[Kamen Rider]

There is a factor you guys always forget…

Two trips to Lefferts can fit in an 8 hour work day. Two trips to the Rockaways triggers automatic overtime, what we call a “penalty job”, because it doesn’t fit.

sending all the A trains to the Rockaways will turn the A to 100% penalty jobs. 
 

a one way trip is roughly 1 hour and 45 minutes.

that right there is 7 hours, back and forth (assuming nothing has gone wrong)

 

Then you have the fact that all road jobs start at least 15 minutes before your first trip.

so that leaves only 45 minutes for our lunch break and the post trip breaks that are not our lunches.
 

While we are contractually guaranteed at least 20 minutes for lunch, the vast majority of lunch breaks are in the 40-50 minute range.

 

My lunch break on the job I have today is 45 minutes. 
 

oh look, there goes all 8 hours right there. 

As I have said in the past, we’re human beings. People. With needs and wants. We are not part of the train. 

I need to be able to sit down, go to bathroom, have a drink of water… before I spend the better part of the next two hours bouncing around town in that hole in the ground.

 

this is why a lot of A jobs are split. So that one trip is in and out of Lefferts and the other in and out of Far Rockaway. 

[R179 8258]

On 6/23/2024 at 6:09 PM, Jemorie said:

Just now checked the timetable. Interestingly, it looks like its midday headways since December 2023 have been increased to every 8 minutes (mathematically 7.5 trains an hour). Before, midday service was every 10 minutes.

Or maybe I’m missing something? Sorry, I rarely be active nowadays.

How do you calculate how many train and the run time ? 

[Calvin]

22 minutes ago, R179 8258 said:

How do you calculate how many train and the run time ? 

The total run time each direction / headways then x (mulitply it) by 2

[Wallyhorse]

53 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

There is a factor you guys always forget…

Two trips to Lefferts can fit in an 8 hour work day. Two trips to the Rockaways triggers automatic overtime, what we call a “penalty job”, because it doesn’t fit.

sending all the A trains to the Rockaways will turn the A to 100% penalty jobs. 

a one way trip is roughly 1 hour and 45 minutes

that right there is 7 hours, back and forth (assuming nothing has gone wrong)

Then you have the fact that all road jobs start at least 15 minutes before your first trip.

so that leaves only 45 minutes for our lunch break and the post trip breaks that are not our lunches.

While we are contractually guaranteed at least 20 minutes for lunch, the vast majority of lunch breaks are in the 40-50 minute range.

My lunch break on the job I have today is 45 minutes. 

oh look, there goes all 8 hours right there. 
As I have said in the past, we’re human beings. People. With needs and wants. We are not part of the train. 

I need to be able to sit down, go to bathroom, have a drink of water… before I spend the better part of the next two hours bouncing around town in that hole in the ground.

this is why a lot of A jobs are split. So that one trip is in and out of Lefferts and the other in and out of Far Rockaway. 

Then the solution likely would be to figure how how to have both the and Rockaway Park  terminate at Euclid,  On weekends, this probably is easier since the could come into Euclid on the northbound express track with a quick relay to the southbound express track using the switch south of Euclid between the express tracks that run to the tail tracks and come back in on the northbound express track, in each case between trains.  If feasible, this is how that issue could be solved.  

[Kamen Rider]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Then the solution likely would be to figure how how to have both the and Rockaway Park  terminate at Euclid,  On weekends, this probably is easier since the could come into Euclid on the northbound express track with a quick relay to the southbound express track using the switch south of Euclid between the express tracks that run to the tail tracks and come back in on the northbound express track, in each case between trains.  If feasible, this is how that issue could be solved.  

Dude… seriously… you make that sound so simple on paper… but real life does not work that way.

 

service patters are the way they are for a reason. You just need to learn to accept we don’t do things because we feel like it.

”well, you did (thing) in the past…”

We did… and it probably wasn’t a good idea or a good use of resources. 

[slantfan4281]

6 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

this is why a lot of A jobs are split. So that one trip is in and out of Lefferts and the other in and out of Far Rockaway. 

Does a similar thing exist on some of the A division branches? Is overtime considerations (vs a shorter trip to Dyre Av) part of the reason why some of the  to Nereid trips run express between 180th and Gun Hill?

[Lex]

2 hours ago, slantfan4281 said:

Does a similar thing exist on some of the A division branches? Is overtime considerations (vs a shorter trip to Dyre Av) part of the reason why some of the  to Nereid trips run express between 180th and Gun Hill?

Honestly, that probably has more to do with trying to minimize further delays than anything else.

[Kamen Rider]

2 hours ago, slantfan4281 said:

Does a similar thing exist on some of the A division branches? Is overtime considerations (vs a shorter trip to Dyre Av) part of the reason why some of the  to Nereid trips run express between 180th and Gun Hill?

No, not in this case. The Gun Hill expresses are also Gun Hill drop outs, heading for layup at 239th street yard.

there are only three such trips on the timetable and one of them is quite a choice job. It’s less than 8 hours (by contract it automatically pays for 8 hours) and only has one “round trip” that doesn’t actually even go to Brooklyn.

departs Dyre, runs to Bowling Green, runs around the Ferry Loop, and then runs up to Gun Hill Road. Crew takes the train together to 239th yard and both stay there the rest of their shift.

[Lex]

8 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

There is a factor you guys always forget…

Two trips to Lefferts can fit in an 8 hour work day. Two trips to the Rockaways triggers automatic overtime, what we call a “penalty job”, because it doesn’t fit.

sending all the A trains to the Rockaways will turn the A to 100% penalty jobs. 
 

a one way trip is roughly 1 hour and 45 minutes.

that right there is 7 hours, back and forth (assuming nothing has gone wrong)

 

Then you have the fact that all road jobs start at least 15 minutes before your first trip.

so that leaves only 45 minutes for our lunch break and the post trip breaks that are not our lunches.
 

While we are contractually guaranteed at least 20 minutes for lunch, the vast majority of lunch breaks are in the 40-50 minute range.

 

My lunch break on the job I have today is 45 minutes. 
 

oh look, there goes all 8 hours right there. 

As I have said in the past, we’re human beings. People. With needs and wants. We are not part of the train. 

I need to be able to sit down, go to bathroom, have a drink of water… before I spend the better part of the next two hours bouncing around town in that hole in the ground.

 

this is why a lot of A jobs are split. So that one trip is in and out of Lefferts and the other in and out of Far Rockaway. 

Honestly, addressing all that would require years of planning and changes to certain protocols. We'd really need a more direct route between Euclid Avenue and Aqueduct/Howard Beach (likely without intermediate stops), higher speeds across the bridges, and possibly higher speeds on the rolling stock with more aggressive acceleration profiles just to begin to deal with it.

In this particular case, I only mentioned it because as bad as having all daytime  trains run to the Rockaways is, having any  trains go out there beyond sheer desperation is infinitely worse. See, while the former absolutely sucks for the workers and has significantly higher overall demands than the present, the latter also sucks for riders, given the disparity in distance between either Rockaway terminus and Rockaway Boulevard on top of whether or not the train typically skips stations.

Edited June 25 by Lex

[Calvin]

The Subway Series baseball special of Yankees vs Mets will have extra  trains  after the game, express as  up to 74 St-Broadway but local up to 34 St-Hudson Yards. 

https://pix11.com/news/transit/mta-announces-extra-trains-for-2-day-sold-out-subway-series/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1RlgvOQsusMUGwexu6PMlQDgPLdfT5d7AtfdzQzz8WNY0lzoMdNE3AYXU_aem_iHm6TCh4atD_bG1GQsS3wA

Edited June 25 by Calvin

[darkstar8983]

14 hours ago, Calvin said:

The total run time each direction / headways then x (mulitply it) by 2

What about terminal layovers? 

[biGC323232]

16 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

There is a factor you guys always forget…

Two trips to Lefferts can fit in an 8 hour work day. Two trips to the Rockaways triggers automatic overtime, what we call a “penalty job”, because it doesn’t fit.

sending all the A trains to the Rockaways will turn the A to 100% penalty jobs. 
 

a one way trip is roughly 1 hour and 45 minutes.

that right there is 7 hours, back and forth (assuming nothing has gone wrong)

 

Then you have the fact that all road jobs start at least 15 minutes before your first trip.

so that leaves only 45 minutes for our lunch break and the post trip breaks that are not our lunches.
 

While we are contractually guaranteed at least 20 minutes for lunch, the vast majority of lunch breaks are in the 40-50 minute range.

 

My lunch break on the job I have today is 45 minutes. 
 

oh look, there goes all 8 hours right there. 

As I have said in the past, we’re human beings. People. With needs and wants. We are not part of the train. 

I need to be able to sit down, go to bathroom, have a drink of water… before I spend the better part of the next two hours bouncing around town in that hole in the ground.

 

this is why a lot of A jobs are split. So that one trip is in and out of Lefferts and the other in and out of Far Rockaway. 

I get the point that your making in todays age...I just have one question to this...How did the Mta make that work in the past...I recall at one point C trains served Rockway Park at all times except the late nights when it became a shuttle...Yes it was a few decades ago but it did happened...What was the reason they changed the service pattern in the rockways ...Cause of the things you listed above,or Cause of ridership, Cause motorman complained that it was to long.... 

[Lex]

4 hours ago, biGC323232 said:

I get the point that your making in todays age...I just have one question to this...How did the Mta make that work in the past...I recall at one point C trains served Rockway Park at all times except the late nights when it became a shuttle...Yes it was a few decades ago but it did happened...What was the reason they changed the service pattern in the rockways ...Cause of the things you listed above,or Cause of ridership, Cause motorman complained that it was to long.... 

That's easy.

Outside of the peaks, Rockaway Park has almost never seen service beyond Euclid Avenue (and even then, you could easily replace that with Broad Channel) after being integrated into the subway.

 

[Trainmaster5]

4 hours ago, Lex said:

That's easy.

Outside of the peaks, Rockaway Park has almost never seen service beyond Euclid Avenue (and even then, you could easily replace that with Broad Channel) after being integrated into the subway.

 

If I’m not mistaken it was about ‘78-‘79 when the  was sent to the Rockaways for a short period. I remember the  serving the Rockaways for a longer period. S/B  trains made a crew change at Euclid back then. I recall some school car motor instructors laughing at some crews because some people didn’t know how to pick jobs or understand the work programs and they ended up with those jobs for a pick. Unlike many rail fans who are clueless about how things work in the real world in RTO the basic idea is to spend as little time as possible on any train. Seniority is the name of the game underground. Just a little perspective. Carry on.

[Lex]

17 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

If I’m not mistaken it was about ‘78-‘79 when the  was sent to the Rockaways for a short period. I remember the  serving the Rockaways for a longer period. S/B  trains made a crew change at Euclid back then. I recall some school car motor instructors laughing at some crews because some people didn’t know how to pick jobs or understand the work programs and they ended up with those jobs for a pick. Unlike many rail fans who are clueless about how things work in the real world in RTO the basic idea is to spend as little time as possible on any train. Seniority is the name of the game underground. Just a little perspective. Carry on.

I've thought about drastically increasing service to the Rockaways with crew changes at Euclid Avenue while the gets Lefferts Boulevard (I don't particularly care if the three-stop Q112 brigade complains about the loss of direct express service, given how much longer a trip between Rockaway Boulevard and the Rockaways is), but even ignoring how many crews would be needed, I'm not too keen on that because of the disparity between the Rockaway split and the Inwood split. Jay Street would be a better crew change point as far as the train schedules appear, but the problems with that should be obvious, especially without a more direct connection between 8th Avenue Local and Fulton Street Local.

As for what actually served Rockaway Park in years past, it's true that the  ran there at one time, but after what I would call years of indecision (look at all of those / swaps!), that practice ended in 1976 (when the Jamaica/6th Avenue  was dropped, just for reference). They sent the  in its place, but dropping the double-letter format split it into the  and , with the former serving Queens until 1992. Since then, aside from the truncated , a grand total of five AM peak  trains run from Rockaway Park to a Manhattan terminus (168th Street, Dyckman Street, or 207th Street), with the same number running to Rockaway Park as PM peak return trips.

[biGC323232]

11 hours ago, Lex said:

I've thought about drastically increasing service to the Rockaways with crew changes at Euclid Avenue while the gets Lefferts Boulevard (I don't particularly care if the three-stop Q112 brigade complains about the loss of direct express service, given how much longer a trip between Rockaway Boulevard and the Rockaways is), but even ignoring how many crews would be needed, I'm not too keen on that because of the disparity between the Rockaway split and the Inwood split. Jay Street would be a better crew change point as far as the train schedules appear, but the problems with that should be obvious, especially without a more direct connection between 8th Avenue Local and Fulton Street Local.

As for what actually served Rockaway Park in years past, it's true that the  ran there at one time, but after what I would call years of indecision (look at all of those / swaps!), that practice ended in 1976 (when the Jamaica/6th Avenue  was dropped, just for reference). They sent the  in its place, but dropping the double-letter format split it into the  and , with the former serving Queens until 1992. Since then, aside from the truncated , a grand total of five AM peak  trains run from Rockaway Park to a Manhattan terminus (168th Street, Dyckman Street, or 207th Street), with the same number running to Rockaway Park as PM peak return trips.

Question about that.....Do those peak rush hour A trains changes crew for those runs....Just curious

 

12 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

If I’m not mistaken it was about ‘78-‘79 when the  was sent to the Rockaways for a short period. I remember the  serving the Rockaways for a longer period. S/B  trains made a crew change at Euclid back then. I recall some school car motor instructors laughing at some crews because some people didn’t know how to pick jobs or understand the work programs and they ended up with those jobs for a pick. Unlike many rail fans who are clueless about how things work in the real world in RTO the basic idea is to spend as little time as possible on any train. Seniority is the name of the game underground. Just a little perspective. Carry on.

 

[Kamen Rider]

3 hours ago, biGC323232 said:

Question about that.....Do those peak rush hour A trains changes crew for those runs....Just curious

 

 

there is only 1 regular "mid run" crew change now and that is Bedford Park Blvd on the D, since 205th does not have crew base faculties. 

You operate from Stillwell up to 205th, train is relayed with the help of a switch operator, and then you run down the the one stop to bedford. Only Concourse Yard put-ins operate 205 to Stillwell directly. 

[biGC323232]

1 hour ago, Kamen Rider said:

there is only 1 regular "mid run" crew change now and that is Bedford Park Blvd on the D, since 205th does not have crew base faculties. 

You operate from Stillwell up to 205th, train is relayed with the help of a switch operator, and then you run down the the one stop to bedford. Only Concourse Yard put-ins operate 205 to Stillwell directly. 

Oh  Ok.... Thanks Hun